After looking at the recent combine performances I figured I would compare the top 40 yard dash times and vertical jumps to see how many of the same athletes made the top performances for both.
Key points
-The fastest 3 athletes in the 40 did not even make the list in the 15 top vertical jumps at the combine.
-the Top 7 vertical jumps were performed by athletes who did not make the top 15 in the 40 yard dash.
-In consideration of the top 15 perofrmances in each category only 3 were on both lists.
which means there were 27 unique athletes making top performancec
Number 2 are you quoting something from this thread? or just in general?
I completely agree that forces are vertical in sprinting. I was just trying to get the point across that too many people get to wrapped up in particular tests when ultimately they need to focus on whats most important.
One particular very very well known strength coach told me that he he knows his athletes will run a faster 40 when his box jump goes up. While it may be the case, I disagree and it is not a complete direct relationship. There needs to be much more emphasis placed on the mechanical and technical components of sprinting instead of just “get strong and jump higher and pray that you go out and run faster because we’ve increased your force production” which are common thoughts among many combine coaches.
In contrast however, there are also many factors to consider, and they are certainly related, and to not perform jumps, and bounds, especially of those that are vertical in nature etc would be very limiting to the athlete.
-The fastest 3 athletes in the 40 did not even make the list in the 15 top vertical jumps at the combine. -The Top 7 vertical jumps were performed by athletes who did not make the top 15 in the 40 yard dash.
i know at least personally, from weightlifting and bringing my parallel squat from under 185 to repping 315 my sprint time over the 55 didnt even improve a tenth, but my vertical shot up like half a foot at least, and my broad jump maybe up to a foot
my problem was that the only part similar to the jumps during something like a 40 is like the first couple steps, then the contact times are so low that i think the rest of the race is less affected even if your vertical gets huge
Some who have here for more than a while might remember a guy who was here for a period something like 2-3 years ago. The guy put up some ridiculous weight room numbers, including something like a 700lb box squat. I think he had a 46 inch vertical and could just about hit his head on a basketball rim…
Couldn’t sprint worth shit, and I think he left frustrated.
You also don’t see winners of the NBA slam dunk contest competing in IAAF high jump.
My sense is that the vertical force that results in hip height while traveling horizontally at high speed is a different skill from the vertical force that results in a single explosive move skyward.
If the forces are predominately vertical in sprinting, then why is it the guys with great verts can’t hang with the 40 guys & vice versa?. If the vert guys produce greater vertical forces?, they should excel in the 40/sprints, since “forces are vertical in sprinting”?.
It’s not like there choosing one over the other. I’m sure both sets of athletes (good verters/sprinters) would be trying/training to increase both disciplines, particularly at the combine.
I find the whole thing quite strange as guys with great verts have the same qualities needed to be a good sprinter (elasticity, great hip power, great achilles tendon/calf/ankle strength etc). Elastic strength is certainly one of the defining qualities of the fastest 100m sprinters. Is the distance just too short for the vert guys to show there true qualities (40m onwards)?.
Could training for a great vert in some way have a negative effect on the 40?/sprinting?. Again, the guys with great verts are also putting in max effort 40’s throughout the year, they show great elasticity, hip power, great achilles tendon/calf/ankle strength etc) but just aren’t able to hang in the 40.
So what gives?. Just sheer leg speed?, since both sets of athletes are explosive.
IT comes down to physics. Here are a few quotes that i think make it simple.
THis is a quote from Mike young over at Elite track : "Vertical forces are important for Vmax running because at maximum velocity the system acts very much like a spring or a bouncing ball. Forward momentum is developed through the acceleration / drive phase and at maximum velocity the net propulsive forces are 0. The vertical forces are what keep the system going (keep the ball bouncing). Without high vertical forces the system ceases to act as a spring-mass model and deceleration occurs.
At it’s most basic level we can think of it like this: the acceleration phase develops forward momentum—-> the body will now tend to stay at a constant velocity unless acted on by external forces (gravity, air resistance, friction, etc.). These situations of course do not occur on earth but this statement will be most relevant to the sprinter / coach if they aim to get the system to act as a perfect spring (forces in = forces out). To do this a sprinter needs high vertical forces to keep the ball bouncing. Without the high vertical forces the system becomes less and less perfectly elastic (not to be confused with the concept of the same name typically used in sprinting) and the sprinter will decelerate more and more.
You maximize vertical force output through proper sprint mechanics and force, rate of force, and power development. "
and from Tom Tellez “Tom proceeded to share the simple concept of the garden hose spraying water . When you tilt slightly back the garden hose will see the water rise, given that you are holding it parallel to the ground. The best angle is a combination of physics and anatomy, and increasing the forces on the down stroke of the stride will increase the distance, sort of like turning on the water pressure. Efforts to pull back will cause you to fall on your face. Since you are already sprinting vertical forces with trajectory angle will allow for greater levels of speed only if you can apply the forces better (power,contact time,technique).”
Also, what I failed to point out in my original post comparing 40s and verts, many of the top vertical jumpers were from defensive linemen and tight ends and players who are capable of developing tons of power but there body types are nno condusive to sprinting.
Although there are many similiarities to vertical jumping, there is still a huge difference in the RFD compared to sprinting.
Let us not also forget that these players do not necasasrily have the expertise of sprint coaching avaibale, so although they maay have all of the necassary qualities to be a good sprinter, they are unable to express these qualities because they dont know how to run.
I am not surprised that guys with great vertical may not be great sprinters. As you say, they may just not know how. It does kind of surprise me that the top sprinters are not also terrific on verticals. But it is clear that the two events are testing different attributes, or else they wouldn’t have two tests. A few years back, I read an article (sports page, not science journal) that said that college football coaches think that vertical is a better predictor of success than the 40 is. This is in terms of evaluating high school talent. Maybe 4 years later when evaluating for the NFL it would be different.
I would be very surprised if the guys with the fastest 40’s didn’t have well above average verticals. I would also be surprised if the guys with the highest verticals didn’t have above average 40’. Position and body mass taken into consideration.
This thread is discussing the outliers really so it’s hard to compare and not exactly accurate to compare them.
Vedette: I recall a study in which someone studied the best predictors of success in the nfl and the verical jump seemed to be the best.
lr400: I think certainly you will never see a guy run sub 4.4 with a 20 inch vertical, but it doesn have to be a 40 inch vert. IMO If you have a vert somewhere around 30 is prob a threshold if you will. I know Mcfadden ran a 4.3 with a 30 or 31 inch vert, and Ive seen guys in my college aroound 30 inches run fast, But i hvae never seen a guy jumping around 20 who could run.
Vertical forces in sprinting are a result of very different qualities than those needed for a vertical jump. In sprinting, muscles contract isometrically or eccentrically at foot contact and force is produced by elastic recoil of tendons. The stiffer the tendon, the less energy is lost at ground contact and the more vertical force is produced. Flexion at the hip and knee is (or should be) minimal at ground contact.
In a vertical jump, force is produced by the concentric contraction of muscles and flexion at the knee and hip is substantial. A vertical jump is thus much more closely related to the acceleration phase of a sprint, when forces are primarily horizontal, than to the top speed phase, when forces are about 90% vertical.
BTW: You don’t even need a great vertical jump to be a good high jumper. Stefan Holm’s vertical was about 29 inches. There was hardly any knee or hip flexion in his takeoff, and he relied almost exclusively on leg stiffness to raise his centre of gravity by about 55 inches.
I saw one test, done in 2007 or 2008, and it was about 24" from standing, compared to something in the 30"s from Donald Thomas… A sport science series that also had some tests done on Asafa (psoas size and quad strength are what I remember).
Dwain also gained some significant body weight though too. Remember you have to consider your goals when you are training… if Dwain felt he needed explosiveness in the first 10-20m of his race, then he should be improving his squat… if his times didn’t drop as his squat max improved, then the excess weight he gained outweighed (figuratively) his need for improvement in that area.
Also, until your body becomes upright, your speed is more dependant on quad and push strength… when you’re vertical, it becomes a combination of factors, but definitely more of a pull than a push.
Also, too much air time? I think that must be a Sprint technique error because I doubt anyone has more air time vs gct that bolt and those guys have.
I read sometime ago there was fine balance between air & ground flight to run your optimal 100? (I didn’t record the source). I’ve also found that the vertical jump deals mainly with knee extension and little with hip extension. A lot of conflicting information out there.
Do the guys excelling in the vert produce just too much air time?.
Dwain gaining significant BW would have certainly been a factor.
It doesn’t always have to be at the expense of gaining mass though.
