great point… retroactive solutions don’t seem to be cutting it, do they? if you have ever watched bowling for columbine you might remember the statistic pointing out that the murder rate (albeit gun murder, but still) in the US is astronimocally, ridiculously higher than anywhere else in the world. you can’t point to human nature or brain defects to account for it- what is wrong with american society?
i can think of a LOT of things.
You believe that the death penalty is a better deterrent than life in prison, and you give us an example to qualify this point of view. But, there are also people out there that are not afraid to die and would rather die than spend life in prison. Don’t forget Timothy Mcvey had legal challenges available to him that would have delayed his execution for many years, but he ordered his attorneys to withdraw the rest of his appeals back in December 2000 because he was ready to die.
My point? The death penalty can be more of a deterrent for some but not for others.
Stats:
FBI Report Reveals Murder Rate Rise in the South
According to the FBI’s Preliminary Uniform Crime Report for 2002, the murder rate in the South increased by 2.1% while the murder rate in the Northeast decreased by almost 5%. The South accounts for 82% of all executions since 1976; the Northeast accounts for less than 1%
Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas. Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates.
Effects of an Execution on Homicides in California. Author Ernie Thompson examined criminal homicides in Los Angeles before and after California’s execution of Robert Harris in 1992, the states first execution after a 25-year moratorium. Thompson found slight increases in homicides during the eight months following the execution. (3 Homicide Studies 129-150 (1999)).
I agree, it is astronomically high compared to CAN and EU, but there are countries in the world with murder rates (per capita) a multiple of that.
World leaders are nations like South Africa, Brazil, Jamaica. Look at their social structures and you get a good idea of the factors causing violent crimes: the majority of the people is living in groups with almost no connection to the nations structures concerning economy, security, justice, education.
From your birth you get the idea (and it’s the main opinion amongst the people) the country is doing NOTHING for you why shoud YOU do something for your country, why should YOU follow it’s rules?
THEY invest not tax money in infrastructure of my community, why should I pay tax, even try to get a legal (bad payed) job?
It’s all about me and my survival. Try to get as much as you can, no matter how.
Not an intellectual decision - that idea forms you from your birth. And the crime statistics tell you whats the result…
It is, because if you kill somebody (as a punishment for his crime) you have to be ABSOLUTELY sure that he is guilty. But you can never be. Humans are judged by humans and even the best institutions can fail. And the legal institutions of our “Western Civilized World” are currently the best in the world, but far from being perfect.
Who decides? A jury. Why in the US a higher percentage of killers of African descent are sentenced to death compared to white killers?
It’s humans decisions and humans knowledge is fallible, always partly emotional, human institutions can and do fail. Based on humans decicisions you can’t kill a man!
And cases which seem super-clear? Perfect evidence? When you have a video of the killing?
If you’re the killer on the tape and you are damn rich and can afford a good lawer - one little trick and the evidence is found not valid and you go free.
Why? Only because you are rich.
Take OJ’s case. Some of the evidence seemed so striking. The procedure of collection of the evidence by police was questioned by the defense - and the man went free. Is he guilty? Honestly, I don’t know and nobody can except himself. You can’t be 100% sure, never.
If a man killed more than once, was found guilty in court more than once - lock him away for the rest of his life, but you can’t take his life. You would need absolute knowledge to be able to make that most final of all decisions to take his life.
In a perfect world a perfect being would destroy those who killed and will kill again. Well, the world is not perfect and even religious people usually believe that you’ll be judged after life.
If the victim is my wife, my child? Of course I’d feel the strong want to kill the killer. Very much! But wanting to kill is wanting to kill - one man kills for revenge, one man kills for money, one man kills to get to rape a woman.
Even if revenge may seem “jusified” from individual points of view.
A lot of gang killings happen for revenge. Are they justified? If strictly every killer is killed in the end everybody is dead.
If you saw “Bowling for Columbine” you know that Canada has more guns per capita than USA… a fact that surprised me. Yet the US has such hi murder by gun stats.
As for teaching our children… that is so true.
The worst thing for society is a child (then adult) without empathy… if you teach your child anything, empathy is #1 because from the lack of that flows barbaric acts with no remorse.
I have a 10 year old son. I have taught him that it is better to be in trouble for 10 minutes than it is to be labeled a liar & not trusted for a lifetime. This has hit home with him as there have been many times he has thought for a second & then told me something he did even though it may get him in trouble. He has been yelled at by soccer dads for stopping on the field to make sure another player is okay when they fell down (yes, I dealt with the dads).
A caring, empathetic human being will not torture animals, people or even destroy property. But maybe this is why it is so important that we make sure children are in loving, nurturing homes?
(2 boys in my son’s school have grown up with parents being absent or just letting them do whatever they want, with no boundaries/guidance… they don’t care for themselves, let alone anyone else… even my son said they will not have a bright future unless they change their attitude & apporach)
Good points djp!
Most sociologists believe that violence is affected by environment just as much as anything.
Granted that every human has a primal violent side -just look at very young kids interact with each other. We also have the ability for higher reasoning. I also agree that with good parenting kids can learn empathy, and how to control the primal urge to violence and taught to become productive members of society.
On the other side of the coin, it has been shown that if a group of people, whether classified by class or race, are marginalize by society and treated like animals they will end up acting like one. This manifest a continuous cycle of violence and degradation.
People having a sense of empathy, dignity, and integrity can go a long way.
Finally, some people are looking for the easy way out. This is why the prison industrial complex is so prolific. It is known that it costs more per year to have criminals in the penal system than it is to send them to college.
The USA is looked as the greatest country on the earth by some for many reasons. But, it was a philosopher that once said -and I paraphrase- How you treat the lesser of society is the true measure of the greatness of a nation.
With Millions without health care, and dwindling opportunities, classism, racism, and sexism…How great are we?
I work in a pro-life ministry, so perhaps I can speak to this question.
I am very pro-life, and I am very pro-death penalty.
Unborn babies have committed no crime. They never deserve death. The only case in which I would allow for abortion in when the mother will die if the child is allowed to come to term - like in a tubal pregnancy.
Some criminals have committed a crime so dangerous that they deserve death - a death duly authorized by a legitimate governing authority after a fair trial in which the appeals process has been followed. As a private citizen, the Bible forbids me from taking revenge myself. It is the government’s job to punish the guilty, not mine. There is a profound moral and theological difference between taking a life in revenge, and the government doing it to satisfy justice. The Bible clearly forbids one, while the other is a legitimate action of the civil authorities.
I hope that our military (again, a duly authorized agent of our government) captures and kill Osama Bin Ladin. He has forfeited his right to life through his willful action, namely murder.
So you can see there is aprofound difference between abortion and capitol punishment.
Rome is Burning and I am playing the fucking fiddle.
I think you mean that you are anti-abortion (mostly at least), and pro-death penalty.
The way you stated it “Pro-life”–> “Pro-death” is an oxymoron. It’s the same a “For-life” --> “For Death.”
In the case of Osama, it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t deserves death, but can you be absolutely sure that all the death penalty that have been carried out were just. I gave some statistics from the FBI about the deterrence of the death penalty or lack thereof… Now, if we use the death penalty as an “eye for an eye” punishment as you seem to be implying. What purpose does it serve? Besides revenge of the state?
What if I told you that I would rather be executed than spend the rest of my life in a freaking cage? Wouldn’t you be doing me a favor and putting me out of my misery? Like shooting a horse that’s broken his leg. Why was Timothy Mcvey so ready to die? Also, when Osama dies doesn’t he believes he’s going to a better place to meet Allah?
Finally, I never implied that there wasn’t a difference between capital punishment and abortion. Only that the term (pro-life) use to describe anti-abortionist is a misnomer.
Look, absolutely one can be anti-abortion AND pro-death penalty. What you can’t be is “For”-life (pro-life) and “For” - death penalty without it being a fallacy.
lol…Why did Rome truly burn? Or is that just a meaningless cliche?
I am totally prepared to accept this, almost…
While I am not in theory a supporter of the death penalty, some people have committed crimes which are so vast and unimaginable (like osama) that I wouldn’t heisitate for a moment if the decision were mine, I agree with you on that.
As for abortion- I’d be curious to hear what you say about rape. Of course rape is not the baby’s fault, but still… I was raped when I was 13, what if I had gotten pregnant? The trauma of that experience would have forced me to become a completely different person and would have changed my whole life, almost certainly for the worse, and a baby would have been a constant reminder of what happened at such a young age. Isn’t there a case to be made for emotional death as well?
I say that I’m “pro-life” because I am in favor of a baby’s right to live, just as I am against euthanasia of the old and infirm. But it’s really not a big deal. The terms I used are generally accepted in the American socio-political world, but you can use whatever you like.
No, I cannot be sure that the death penalty has been carried out justly each and every time. In fact, I believe that in some cases it has not carried out justly, and when that happens, heads need to roll (figuratively, that is.) But it does not make the principle of capitol punishment wrong because it has been carried out incorrectly in a few cases. The principle itself is sound. To use an analogy, police forces are sometimes corrupt, but I’m not ready to get rid of the one in my hometown.
I suspect that the alleged lack of a “deterrent effect” has more to do with the fact that capitol punishment is rarely used in this country. But in the end whether it’s a deterrent or not is not my chief concern. Justice and rightness is the important principle. Regrettably, a very few people in this world simply deserve to die, because what they have done is so heinous and cruel that death is the only appropriate punishment. What God does with them after that is His business, not ours.
I draw moral distinctions between a private citizen killing for revenge, a soldier killing the enemy in the field of battle, and the state taking a life after due process. The first is always wrong. The latter two are regrettable but sometimes necessary.
What if I told you that I would rather be executed than spend the rest of my life in a freaking cage? Wouldn’t you be doing me a favor and putting me out of my misery?
No, I wouldn’t be doing you a favor. No one should be executed because it’s “better” than spending their life in jail. You never know how God will work, and as long as there is life there is Hope. Many people have been given freedom in Christ though they live behind bars.
That is terrible. I really don’t have the words to tell you how sorry I am that such a thing could happen to you.
Perhaps this verse would have special meaning for you:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Gospel of Matthew 11:28-30.
Regarding your question, in the instance of pregnancy through the crime of rape, I would counsel the young girl, if a pregnancy is possible without severe health risks, to have the baby and give him or her up for adoption. Children are the most precious thing imaginable (I know, I have a 1 year old and a 2 year old), and there are countless thousands of great families who desperately want a baby. To throw away a potential blessing like that for a family that can’t have kids would be to compound tragedy on top of tragedy.
It’s a funny anecdote based on a real-life historical event. An huge portion of Rome burned to the ground in the first century A.D. during the emperorship of Nero. Nero was one of the most insane, perverted and bizarre emperors in Roman history (and that is saying quite a bit.) As the story goes, he apparently cared so little for his people that he actually played the fiddle as his grand city burned and many people died.
Afterwards he blamed the fire on Christians and had even more of them killed. Nero was probably a contemporary of several of the original Apostles of Christ.
So to say that someone is “fiddling while Rome burns” is to say that they are doing something inconsequential while awful things are happening.
I respect your views, as it is based on theological concepts.
Having said that… you say that the death penalty is “regrettable but sometimes necessary” for “justice.” Is that necessity based on the “eye for an eye” principle? Or is there something else that makes capital punishment just for the crime of murder?
Would Jesus support capital punishment?
Or do you rely on the Old Testament to guide your beliefs?
Finally, you say that you wouldn’t be doing me a favor if I wanted to die instead of spending life in prison. But in reality, isn’t that your definition?
I’d rather die than spend 40-50yrs in a prison going crazy. You think that where there is life there’s hope. And I think liberty or death!
So maybe in this case we are both getting what we want, lol!
Actually, I am aware of the story. My undergraduate degree was in history with a focus on classic civilization.
I actually wanted Clemson to clarify himself before I started making assumptions.
Nevertheless, it would be interesting for him to explain what about this thread is inconsequential while awful things are happening in clear unequivocal terms?
Is it that we are dealing with subjects that answers are so clear to him that any discussion would be considered trite?
I feel somewhat uneasy making any comments on the subject of rape, because it’s such a personal and sensitive subject. I once dated a lady that was date raped when she was younger. And I saw how it affected her life and relationships in general. I found that professional counseling helped her tremendously even years after the offense occurred.
Being a woman who HAS given birth… to a son I would die for in a heart beat, I can say that being pregnant is a roller coaster of hormones & emotions & in no way should be forced on ANY woman, let alone one who had been traumatized by rape. It would be tantamount to torture.
I have religious beliefs & the other day my son & I saw an anti-abortion protest & we talked about the subject. He asked me if I had wanted to abort him & I answered (completely honestly) “no, God gave you to me & you are the greatest gift I have ever had” but I would NEVER tell another woman what she must do… it’s between her (& her body) & her “god” … it is not for me to say. (IMHO)
Robin1,
What happens to the brain of a young girl from 2-5 that get’s raped from her father? Murder or emotional torture…
Why anti-euthanasia? This has always puzzelled me. Why prolong the suffering and agony?
No, the death penalty is wrong because it does not do anything it is purported to do. What does it achieve? Does it bring the victim back? Does it right the wrong? You make the statement “a very few people in this world simply deserve to die, because what they have done is so heinous and cruel that death is the only appropriate punishment.” This emotional response reveals the real motivation behind proponents of the death penalty: vengance.
A far cry from Matthew 5:38 good Christian.
Simply put the death penalty is racist, elitist, irreversable in the case of innocence, is cruel and unusual and does not deter violent crime.
The lack of deterrance, has nothing to do with the regularity of practice and is not a new phenomenon. It is something that has been recognized since before the French revolution, when capitol punishment was not only regular, but a public spectacle. And it’s interesting to note that the US is the only western country with the death penalty, yet also has the highest violent crime rates in the western world.
So I ask: Where is the necesity?