Old Working Athletes

[John]

@RB34

For us old folks how many high intensity days have you guys found to be successful?

what do you classify as old folks? Have you looked through

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=43

?

[lkh]

What do you call HI?

6X60 with 10+ min is clearly Max V, but John Smith (remember Willie Gault still trains there) would describe these as sub-max:

3X300
400/300/200
6X150
5X120

The 200’s and longer are more like SE1 pace than tempo.

What do you consider them to be?

[boldwarrior]

haha - you’re not old…
is this for one of your PT clients?

I start most on 2x wk - 1/2hr at a time.
It’s easier to add on later on as they improve, than Take time off if they are not improving.

[boldwarrior]

haha - you’re not old…
is this for one of your PT clients?

I start most on 2x wk - 1/2hr at a time.
It’s easier to add on later on as they improve, than Take time off if they are not improving.

[RB34]

@John

what do you classify as old folks? Have you looked through

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=43

?

I feel 40. Thanks for the link.

[RB34]

I’m sure Willie isn’t working 12hrs a day?? The workouts below are a lot less intense then doing efe-fef-flys-60’s.

@lkh

What do you call HI?

6X60 with 10+ min is clearly Max V, but John Smith (remember Willie Gault still trains there) would describe these as sub-max:

3X300
400/300/200
6X150
5X120

The 200’s and longer are more like SE1 pace than tempo.

What do you consider them to be?

[RB34]

@boldwarrior

haha - you’re not old…
is this for one of your PT clients?

I start most on 2x wk - 1/2hr at a time.
It’s easier to add on later on as they improve, than Take time off if they are not improving.

I feel old, the workouts are for me. I was gonna try and push three high days but decided to keep it at two.

3 high:
Mon: Short speed 300-330 TV
Wed: Spec end 3x250
Fri: Acc 160-240 TV

2 high:
Mon: Short speed
Thur: Starts+Spec end

[John]

@RB34

I feel 40. Thanks for the link.

40 is young

what weights are you doing? IMHO those with the HI (and high work stress / hours) can be what knocks the real oldies around

[boldwarrior]

ya could also add, if you felt ok doing the 2x sessions, a Third Hi day, but Weights ONLY - if you felt more tired, then cull that 3rd session.

Give the 2x a go for a good month 1st.
Then try the weights on a 3rd day - see how it effects you.

[RB34]

@John

40 is young

what weights are you doing? IMHO those with the HI (and high work stress / hours) can be what knocks the real oldies around

2hi:
Mon:
cl 5x2-3
bp 3x3-5
stepups 3x5
jsq 2x8

Thur:
sn+hh 5x2
sq+bound 3x3-5
db ip 3x6-10
jsq angle 2x8

tue/fri: wt circuits

3hi:
Mon: speed
snatch
bp
stepups

Wed: spec end
hs
jump squats
we pullups

Fri: accel
cl
sq
db ip

Tue/Thur wt circuits

[RB34]

@boldwarrior

ya could also add, if you felt ok doing the 2x sessions, a Third Hi day, but Weights ONLY - if you felt more tired, then cull that 3rd session.

Give the 2x a go for a good month 1st.
Then try the weights on a 3rd day - see how it effects you.

Will do, gonna perform a mod 3wk gpp - to help get back on track.

Mon: accel
Thur: 1st wk accel then bleed in efe runs etc
Tue: ext tempo
Fri: CSW

[lkh]

@RB34

I’m sure Willie isn’t working 12hrs a day?? The workouts below are a lot less intense then doing efe-fef-flys-60’s.

I wanted to make sure we were really talking about HI, and not work volumes. John Smith has a basic rule about going to Max not more than once a week, and that’s for 20-year-olds as well as for Willie at almost 50. A lot of stuff like 3X300 that JS does during SPP is there to provide enough work/stimulus to avoid peaking early while saving the CNS. To me, this is a good rule, so I only go between 30 and 120 once a week. I find that I need SP/SE/SE1 3X a week (when I have the time to get it in) to reach potential, but most of that is submax.

Last year, middle of SPP:

Mon 3-4X6X60
Wed 5X120
Fri 6X60

(I had the best results late when the 4X6X60 went to 2X200 with 30 min, just like Charlie said. I also learned that, while I was able to get to 4X6X60 eventually, they were too much for me and led to less performance compared to 3X6X60)

This year’s plan:

Mon 3X300
Wed 5X120
Fri 6X60

I’ve also found that the Steve Francis MVP GPP with the combination of high volume long stuff combined with power stuff from the seminar notes found elsewhere on the site works EXTREMELY well, which is why I asked what I asked on the Bolt thread. In normal JS fashion, the long stuff starts at ET pace, then gets faster each week, and after 4-5 weeks of this, you’re flying in workouts. The difference between the MVP and HSI GPP seems to be that the Jamaicans have more endurance volume combined with much more pure power (though JS does some hills and starts like 15X30m, it’s not the steep hills and sleds with up to 50 pounds the Jamaicans seem to be doing).

Fighting Fire With Fire…

Early in GPP this year:

Mon 3X450
Wed 10X40m steep hill
Fri 5X300

Now, at the end of 8 week SPP, building up the s-l:

Mon 3X2X150 (~400m race pace rest 60 sec/10 min)
Wed 3X6X40 (on grass, from blocks, barefoot, rest walkback/6-8 min)
Fri 3X2X150 (~400m race pace rest 60 sec/10 min)

[John]

@boldwarrior

ya could also add, if you felt ok doing the 2x sessions, a Third Hi day, but Weights ONLY - if you felt more tired, then cull that 3rd session.

Give the 2x a go for a good month 1st.
Then try the weights on a 3rd day - see how it effects you.

I’d go the opposite for the 3rd and do track work only and maybe some plyos & med ball throws.

Why the wt ( which I assume is weight) circuits? Either way (2 or 3 HI) to me you have too much weight room stuff, I feel stuffed just reading it and Yes, yes, yes, I know there is a huge difference between CNS and muscular fatigue.

[RB34]

@John

I’d go the opposite for the 3rd and do track work only and maybe some plyos & med ball throws.

Why the wt ( which I assume is weight) circuits? Either way (2 or 3 HI) to me you have too much weight room stuff, I feel stuffed just reading it and Yes, yes, yes, I know there is a huge difference between CNS and muscular fatigue.

Probably won’t do any running tempo instead I will perform wt circuits, hurdles, med circuits etc etc.

Sample circuit:
Series B:
bar curl
pushdowns
kb rdl
hammer curl
hang leg raises
db lat raises

Perform 10reps with no rest after completing all movements rest 90sec. Actually the wts are good, I’m only performing three primary lifts twice a week. Not sure where you see all the weight volume??

2hi:
Mon:
cl 5x2-3
bp 3x3-5
stepups 3x5
jsq 2x8 (always like to finish with something fast)

Thur:
sn+hh 5x2 (complex)
sq+bound 3x3-5 (complex)
db ip 3x6-10
jsq angle 2x8

tue/fri: wt circuits

[RB34]

Another thing I notice is my body doesn’t handle long tempo work when the weight/speed vol or intensity is high. I prefer to perform longer tempo work when I am in a maint phase. For example when trying to do 4x300 etc in gpp the runs always turn out to be trash because my legs are already trash from the weights and speed.

@lkh

I wanted to make sure we were really talking about HI, and not work volumes. John Smith has a basic rule about going to Max not more than once a week, and that’s for 20-year-olds as well as for Willie at almost 50. A lot of stuff like 3X300 that JS does during SPP is there to provide enough work/stimulus to avoid peaking early while saving the CNS. To me, this is a good rule, so I only go between 30 and 120 once a week. I find that I need SP/SE/SE1 3X a week (when I have the time to get it in) to reach potential, but most of that is submax.

Last year, middle of SPP:

Mon 3-4X6X60
Wed 5X120
Fri 6X60

(I had the best results late when the 4X6X60 went to 2X200 with 30 min, just like Charlie said. I also learned that, while I was able to get to 4X6X60 eventually, they were too much for me and led to less performance compared to 3X6X60)

This year’s plan:

Mon 3X300
Wed 5X120
Fri 6X60

I’ve also found that the Steve Francis MVP GPP with the combination of high volume long stuff combined with power stuff from the seminar notes found elsewhere on the site works EXTREMELY well, which is why I asked what I asked on the Bolt thread. In normal JS fashion, the long stuff starts at ET pace, then gets faster each week, and after 4-5 weeks of this, you’re flying in workouts. The difference between the MVP and HSI GPP seems to be that the Jamaicans have more endurance volume combined with much more pure power (though JS does some hills and starts like 15X30m, it’s not the steep hills and sleds with up to 50 pounds the Jamaicans seem to be doing).

Fighting Fire With Fire…

Early in GPP this year:

Mon 3X450
Wed 10X40m steep hill
Fri 5X300

Now, at the end of 8 week SPP, building up the s-l:

Mon 3X2X150 (~400m race pace rest 60 sec/10 min)
Wed 3X6X40 (on grass, from blocks, barefoot, rest walkback/6-8 min)
Fri 3X2X150 (~400m race pace rest 60 sec/10 min)

[RB34]

This is how I’m planning on progressing my spec end work in spp 1 - any thoughts?

Int: TV: Starts: SE: Rest:
20 820 2x20+1x30+3x250 12
20 820 2x20+1x30+3x250 12
30 820 2x20+1x30+3x250 15
30 600 2x20+2x30+2x250 20
30 600 2x20+2x30+2x250 20
30 600 3x30+1x60+250/200 20
30 550 3x30+1x60+2x200 20
30 440 3x30+200/150 20/15
30 450 3x30+60+2x150 15
30 300 3x30+60+1x150 15
Race: 180 2x3x30

If I decide to compete in meets, I will be limited to about 1-2 indoors and about 3 outdoors meets because of spring football prac etc.

[lkh]

@RB34

Another thing I notice is my body doesn’t handle long tempo work when the weight/speed vol or intensity is high. I prefer to perform longer tempo work when I am in a maint phase. For example when trying to do 4x300 etc in gpp the runs always turn out to be trash because my legs are already trash from the weights and speed.

See the article on Bolt’s (ahem) “weight training” linked on elitetrack. BTW Willie Gault, pushing 50, gets up to 3X10X225 on the bench. Don’t know if I’m supposed to say that, but it’s the truth.

Running 7X300 as ET, as CF claims Ben did, has VERY different lactate effects than 3X300 as SE1. I don’t have a problem doing 300-450 @ 70-75%.

I don’t know about 400 specialists because I’m not one of those, but I find split 300’s to be a better balance for a pure sprinter. You can run them faster, and the lactate level doesn’t get as high.

Running the longer tempo (and at this time I’m still doing heavy accumulation in the weights area, so the pace of 350-450 isn’t as important) is where I find the JS weights before sprints approach to be an advantage. But I’m a follower of James’ approach in the weights area, and when the speed is cranked up, the weight load is sharply reduced.

[RB34]

Sorry, I’m not buying that article. I don’t care what his bench press strength is because I know many “black” athletes - young and old who can press alot - it’s something they do in the hood. How much can he squat or clean? I would die attempting a 450m run. What’s James lifting approach?

@lkh

See the article on Bolt’s (ahem) “weight training” linked on elitetrack. BTW Willie Gault, pushing 50, gets up to 3X10X225 on the bench. Don’t know if I’m supposed to say that, but it’s the truth.

Running 7X300 as ET, as CF claims Ben did, has VERY different lactate effects than 3X300 as SE1. I don’t have a problem doing 300-450 @ 70-75%.

I don’t know about 400 specialists because I’m not one of those, but I find split 300’s to be a better balance for a pure sprinter. You can run them faster, and the lactate level doesn’t get as high.

Running the longer tempo (and at this time I’m still doing heavy accumulation in the weights area, so the pace of 350-450 isn’t as important) is where I find the JS weights before sprints approach to be an advantage. But I’m a follower of James’ approach in the weights area, and when the speed is cranked up, the weight load is sharply reduced.

[lkh]

@RB34

Sorry, I’m not buying that article. I don’t care what his bench press strength is because I know many “black” athletes - young and old who can press alot - it’s something they do in the hood. How much can he squat or clean? I would die attempting a 450m run. What’s James lifting approach?

Remember Charlie’s comment about the people with the highest output needing the longest recovery, and also about what the top guys can lift in the gym compared to what they actually do. It follows that the people who CAN lift the most are exactly the ones who should hold back the most.

@James_Smith

Assuming a general organism strength approach will widen your view considerably regarding the many variations of weight training that may effectively carry one through SPP and the competition calendar.

Establish high enough general strength levels pre-season in a concurrent fashion, on the lifts of your choice, then arrange those lifts serially throughout the competition calendar; thereby only requiring one primary weight training exercise to serve as the primary general organism strength stimulus with the rest being performed in an auxiliary/supportive fashion until it’s their turn to assume the primary role in a subsequent block.

I’ve learned to do similar with the primary weight stimulus preseason and early in GPP when the track stimulus is minimal, then when the SP/SE goes up, the weights go down.

[RB34]

All of that can be done by sticking with 3-6reps without using %'s. If you perform wts after speed while using 3-6reps you should be ok.

@lkh

Remember Charlie’s comment about the people with the highest output needing the longest recovery, and also about what the top guys can lift in the gym compared to what they actually do. It follows that the people who CAN lift the most are exactly the ones who should hold back the most.

I’ve learned to do similar with the primary weight stimulus preseason and early in GPP when the track stimulus is minimal, then when the SP/SE goes up, the weights go down.