In my opinion the only gain in speed endurance would be specific to the treadmill. Speed endurance is a very specific quality and must be trained accordingly. I guess i just dont see the relationship. The race is on a track and dont see how specific running on a treadmill is.
Also whether on a track or treadmill, the athlete will get tired and will have to slow down. Dont see how it would work.
I know there is force that is being produced but how much and how specific to actual running. Just because those athletes did it in cold climates doesnt mean they would have if it were warmer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBcIKFD969U&feature=related
to add
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePzbZS1tsd0&NR=1
These kids are running at speed much higher than they are truly capable of. This stuff is just a joke to me.
the trainers quotes from youtube:
"The high speed treadmill provides overspeed training. The key is the unweighting device. Without it, the hi-speed treadmill is basically worthless. The unweighting device allows us to obtain neurological adaptations safely. It works in two ways. First, because it is safe for the athlete, it removes CNS guarding so the athlete can go all out without fear. Second, because the athlete is unweighted 30% of his body weight, he does not have to put as much force down.
When unweighted the athlete does not have to put as much force into the deck to propel himself up and forward. Less force needed means his foot does not have to be on the deck as long which means he can increase his rate of turnover. Basically, the brain says “Oh, I can run faster than I thought!” When the athlete gets to a whole new level, we begin to slowly reweight him and he is able to keep much of the gain. We use it to train proprioception and body awareness
First, the vest keeps them safe so they cannot fall. This removes “CNS guarding.” Basically, we all have a sense of self-preservation so you cannot go all out if you are afraid you are going to fall. With the vest, you can go all out. Second, the vest is lifting them up to 30% of their body weight. This means they do not have to put as much force into the deck so the foot does not have to stay on the deck as long so you increase the rate of turnover
I don’t agree with overspeed treadmills, but to dismiss treadmills altogether when they are useful tools is not prudent. Plenty of people with extremely high levels of success in virtually all events have used them to some degree.
Also, you most definitely could run faster on a treadmill no matter it being overspeed or otherwise simply because you are not subjected to the same degree of air resistance. Check out the Woodway Curve for an example of how a treadmill could be designed to work well.
but until I see someone like Usain Bolt use one, count me out. If you lived in a polar region, I could excuse it. It makes no sense if you can run on a surface, not a moving belt. I don’t summarily dismiss anything, but I have seen lots of trashed athletes using any number of over speed methods. ESTI, number 3 clip is awesome. Perhaps the coach should hop on it for a half hour?
Usain Bolt doesn’t do Olympic lifts, deep squats, deadlifts, CFTS, or a lot of other things either. That doesn’t make them invalid. He ran sub 20 at 17, so using him as the primary justification of your training program is borderline insanity.
There are plenty of elites that used treadmills to a very significant degree for low intensity work and even up to moderate intensities if running the 400m or longer.
Your comment is silly, you will never coach a Usain Bolt in your lifetime so don’t use him as an example. I completed the FAST program and found the high speed treadmills to be useful, didn’t have any injuries etc.
stick by Charlie on this one. Sorry guys, the science doesn’t support it. It’s your choice to use it or not. To each his own. I think it is a bad idea and would never allow one of my athletes to use it. Come on guy’s, if you can’t understand a joke about Bolt, jeez. Hopefully you have a better constructed attack on me than that. I happen to have a different paradigm when it comes to my methods. Not saying they are the best, but they are what I find best for my style of coaching. I will say this, you guys will find an underwhelming amount of support by many members on this forum who no much more than we do.
Please provide your science. You have clearly demonstrated a lack of knowledge about both physics and biomechanics in your post. I am genuinely curious to learn about some of the literature though.
Charlie has advised people to use treadmills when inclement weather prevents running on softer surfaces. Nearly every distance and mid-distance coach in existence utilizes treadmills when inclement weather exists, including Salazar. Is that enough of a testimonial for you?
You know so much of my knowledge of physics and science. I have as much formal education in these subjects as necessary. I don’t stoop to insults. Yes, I agreed that running on treadmills is better than nothing. I believe I said that in a prior post. I said “I WOULDN’T USE ONE FOR MY ATHLETES”. That being said, I don’t care if you use them or not. Read the end of Charlie’s post. The unplug it part. I don’t see a wholesale paradigm shift to treadmills. I never said it was useless. I said, you should run on the ground whenever possible. Obviously weather can negate that. You guy’s don’t need to get all twisted up about it. Isn’t this forum about debate so we can glean information to better ourselves?
Everyone situation is different, you have to adjust and use what you can when you can.
Can you be a little more mature. Funny how ballsy everyone is typing on a computer. I already said, for the third time, I don’t use them nor would I recommend them. As for there being instances where running on them is better than nothing, see above post. As far as knowledge, I have learned a great deal from Charlie, IN PERSON. Like I actually paid him, not just get as much free info as possible from the forum. I believe in CFTS. I don’t pretend to know all there is about the subject. I just think I will stick to what I know. I have my share of fast athletes. I venture a guess that perhaps I have trained athletes from Olympic sprinters to NFL football players, but according to you and fogelson, I need to hone my knowledge. I will continue you to. Gain, this forum is an exchange of idea’s. I disagreed with the treadmill, but in doing so, didn’t need to hurl insults to get my point across
LOL, your posts are asinine’. Goodluck in training your olympic sprinters.
I am not the individual using derogatory comments. If you disagree with what I said that’s ok. I see you don’t feel I am on your par as a coach. That’s ok. You are obviously correct and I should just agree and we will get along. That isn’t the spirit of the forum. I see by your post that you question the validity of my comment. The sprinters name is Tanko Braimah. He is from Ghana. You can look it up, but i am sure you won’t. Done arguing. Good night.
I found the thread from 2003 on high speed treadmill training. It had a couple of links to info(one by Number Two) that are no longer in use. Any help here would be appreciated.
My friend’s son is training at a place called Athletic Republic. They have some videos on youtube where the athletes are hooked up to bands, some even on their legs, while they sprint. Looks pretty dumb to me.
Any chance you could be more specific than “useful” as in quantifying things?
both ESTI and I were approached by the same group of gentlemen regarding running their proposed Athletic Republic franchise. Although it would have been a good opportunity financially, we both said no because the high speed treadmill work. The protocols were tough to handle if you don’t believe in them 100%. I am not sold on it and therefore walked away as did ESTI. I have been ripped on here for saying I didn’t think science supported the treadmill work. That is just my personal opinion, but also that of several others who are pretty intelligent on this forum. That being said, if someone wants to use it and gets results, that is fine by me. i will see if I can come up with some info on it.
found this snippet from Vern Gambetta regarding high speed treadmill work.
High-speed treadmills: The current fad in over-speed training is high-speed treadmill training. This results from a misinterpretation of limited scientific research. Conclusive research has proven that over-ground running and treadmill running are different. Further, high-speed treadmill training predisposes the athlete to hamstring injuries.
The athlete can get away with some level of poor mechanics on the treadmill because the treadmill does some of the work. For example, because the treadmill moves under the foot, it is possible to overstride. The treadmill also does not teach the athlete to use the ground properly, since ground contact is actually increased. If this pattern is repeated enough so that it is learned, it will transfer negatively when the athlete runs on the ground and may result in hamstring pulls because of the athlete’s learned tendency to overstride.
High Speed Treadmill Sprinting
A third method of training at supramaximal speeds is using a high speed treadmill. A study
byWood (1985) analyzed the biomechanics of using such a device and found that the
overspeed training effect was primarily focused on the hamstring muscle group. Significant
increases in peak hip extensor and knee flexor torques were recorded immediately
following treadmill training.
Wood also suggested a lower knee lift to previous studies (Sinning and Forsyth 1970) was
now indicated as the optimal movement pattern, with stronger hip extensor activity
throughout. This statement was reconfirmed by a kinematic study by Ae et al (1992) of the
men’s 100 meters at the 1991World Athletics Championships in Tokyo.
The study compared the lower limb joint velocities of the first two placegetters (C. Lewis
and L. Burrell) to a group of sub-elite (10.60 to 11.50) athletes. The major difference
between the groups was the superior hip extension velocities attained by Lewis and
Burrell.
Wood also stated that the increase in running velocity led to increased late hamstring
activity, requiring extra energy to slow the lower leg before each ground contact and
ensuring the relative velocity of the foot to the ground was still close to zero, (1.77m/s in
Mero et al (1987) at supramaximal speeds). This led to the hamstring group being placed
under considerable stress and all components of this muscle group were found to be
lengthening, i.e. contracting eccentrically just before ground contact. The muscle
component that undergoes the greatest stretch is the biceps femoris and it is here that
tears occur most often (Gray 1975). For methods if decreasing the potential of hamstring
muscle damage during maximal sprinting, regular training at supramaximal velocities will
increase the eccentric load on this muscle group. When placed under stress from nonassisted
maximal sprint conditions, the angular velocity about the knee, and therefore
stress prior to ground contact will be less, leading to less injury to the hamstring group.
A limitation to high speed treadmill sprinting may be the kinetic differences due to the
ground moving horizontally backwards and not the athletes having to propel their mass
horizontally forward, which could interfere with the normal sprint kinetics on solid
unmoving ground.
Coaching Implications