Hard work with no strength gain

Juggler · February 23, 2007, 3:32am

I have to say I disagree with using WSFSB at all for athletes of this age. Coachf, you said that “It’s too bad that there isn’t a magic workout plan that works for everyone.”

JMT’s post above went a ways towards being it. No w/o is perfect. There will always be adjustments that need to be made but the general template JMT posted is about what I would have said. I could detail why I think WSFSB isn’t so hot, but I’d rather emphasize that the advice given by Pioneer and Jason is correct, IMO.

Pioneer · February 23, 2007, 11:48am

I have to agree. I know some have had good success using it even at the high school level. I’ve alway felt it was better suited for athletes who had undergone a more linear(actually undulating) periodization method progression for some time before taking on the WSB or WSFSB template.

Coachf · February 23, 2007, 9:15pm

I’d like to hear your reasoning for why you think WS4SB isn’t as good as what you are proposing. Also, due to athletic schedules, we will always be having workouts on consecutive days. Often times we go M,T, Th, or M, W, Th in the various seasons. Would this make you modify the total body workouts proposed earlier?
Also, what about explosive lifts, either box jumps or oly’s? It seems like everyone condones at least some type of these for football players. I appreciate all your help.

Pioneer · February 23, 2007, 9:49pm

Pioneer:

I commend you for trying to adjust your program to do what is best for your guys. Unfortunately, since 1)they are individuals and as a result will have individual and unique(at times) responses to the same set of stimuli, it can be beneficial to vary things for them. 2)for those in- season, they are clearly being exposed to physical demands that those who are not playing sports are not, and from sport to sport, those demands differ and as a result of physical requirements of those sports so you have even more variables to consider.

With regards to using the WSFSB program you might want to, if you haven’t in the past, visit DeFranco’s site for he constantly has people asking him questions about implementing his program. He often points out to people, when they describe how they are using his program, that they are not really doing “his program” anymore based upon their descriptions. Some of these people have adjusted/tweaked it so much that it, for some, has resulted in overtraining and straying quite a bit from his original intentions. I believe he has written a number of responses on how to alter WSFSB for an in-season athlete. I believe in season he will not have athletes use the rep. method for lower body since it would likely fry them along with their own practices. Also, it’s been pointed out on this site previously, if your training includes some of the high intensity elements used in sprint training such as sprints themselves, mb throws, plyos etc. use of the DE might be redundant and as a result unnecessary in-season. For those whose sports or particular practices might not include such elements the use of DE might prove to be useful for those athletes, again, in-season to prime or stimulate power production with fairly low volume work.

The fact that there is no single perfect plan though demanding on you will keep things interesting as well as make you a better coach. Being able to adjust as needed, when needed, will help you help your kids. Again, the feedback from those kids you know will tell you like it is, as well as their coaches can provide you with much of the information you need to adjust your program. One caution though is to a point you can over adjust your program and never really find what works by not staying with “it” long enough. You might even use something as simple as a SLJ or VJ test once a week or once a month to let you know how well your program is developing one single aspect of athletic development like jumping power-not absolutely necessary but it can be used. Let us know how everything works out. It would be interesting to hear, after you have made some changes, what the changes were and how they might have helped-then we learn from you.

Coach F, just making sure you saw this earlier response.

Coachf · February 23, 2007, 11:00pm

Thanks. I do think I might have missed that middle paragraph somehow. I have heard about all the things you have mentioned (plyos are redundant for people doing a lot of jumping and sprinting, and in season athlets have more of a form day on their second leg day rather than a lower RE or DE day) and try to implement them. I do check Defranco’s site often, and am constantly trying to research to make this best for everyone. That is one reason I chose WS4SB - there is a lot of detail and suggestions from Joe himself on how to implement it. I think sometimes a problem of mine is that I am constantly looking for ways to make it better, and I do the opposite. I will keep trying.
What don’t you like about WS4SB?
As for the other program that has been mentioned by JTW:
I like the simplicity. I actually use to do our ME lifts like this - 3 sets of 5 with the same weight - the most an athlete could handle with good form. I went back to one set because I was advised on this site that this volume / intensity would be too high. I would like to hear some opinions on how this 3 X 5 with the most weight one can handle with good form would be better or worse than WS4SB.
Since a lot of our guys lift on consecutive days, I am worried about squatting two days in a row. I also worry about burnout from squatting heavy so much.
How would you modify this workout for in season athletes?
What would the next step look like? Actually, I’m not sure I want to hear that yet.

flyingspur · February 24, 2007, 9:38am

JMT:

Coach F,

The Rippetoe/Kilgore programs outlined in “Starting Strength” and “Practical Programming” do not rely on percentages of 1RM. Instead they typically use 3 sets of 5 using as much weight as the trainee can successfully handle with good form. Here is the beginner program outlined in PP:

Day 1

Squat 3 x 5
Bench Press or Standing Overhead Press 3 x 5
Chins 3 x fail

Day 2

Squat 3 x 5
Bench Press or Standing Overhead Press 3 x 5
Deadlift 1 x 5

Day 3

Squat 3 x 5
Bench Press or Standing Overhead Press 3 x 5
Pull-ups 3 x fail

As you can see, the trainee begins every workout by squatting. Squats are followed by the bench press or standing overhead press. The type of press you use (either bench press or overhead press) should be alternated every workout. (i.e. half the time you bench press, half the time you overhead press) The final core lift of the day is either chins, pull-ups or the deadlift. Chins and pull-up are done using bodyweight for three sets to failure. Once the trainee can complete three sets of 12, you should add weight so that they are doing 3 x 5-8. It is easy to overtrain the deadlift, so on deadlift days, we do one set of 5.

Once the trainee has completed the core exercises, any remaining time should be used to complete 1 or 2 auxiliary lifts to strength the postural muscles (abs and lower back) and the posterior chain. Auxiliary lifts are typically done for 3 sets of 10-15 reps.

This is the beginner program. It is simple, but effective and will work for most trainees. Newer trainees should be able to increase the load on all of their lifts almost every workout. Eventually, progress will stall and more complicated loading schemes will be necessary, but for beginners simple progressive loading will suffice.

Note that this workout is very similar to what most Charlie’s athletes did. If you are not a strength athlete (Olympic lifter, thrower, power lifter or bodybuilder) then your work in the weight room is only a general means to improvement and is secondary to training for the actual sport. As such, it should be kept as simple as possible.

-Jason

Excellent post Jason, I found the Novice Starting Strength program as a very efficient approach for beginners to build strength. The second book, Practical Programming for Stength training (PPST) has more insight and it answers many questions. Rip says that most trainees in non strength sports may not have the need to go beyond the intermediate strength training phase detailed in PPST.