And maybe took them back up again in 1985-
CF-"Ben did 7 x 300 tempo in 45sec on grass without much effort in 1985 (PB 10.00) post #224
CF-“Ben did it in 1985 only because he wanted to feel a bit more comfortable running 200s- don’t know that it made any difference as long as the overall volume was the same (big circuit=2200m, 7 x 300= 2100m)” post #227
http://community.charliefrancis.com/showthread.php?17312-What-Can-We-Learn-from-Usain-Bolt-s-Victory/page23
Easy is so much better than the alternatives right?
What do you mean by urgency? It sounds counter to all the things I know for sure.
You feel your greatest gains will come from a few technical issues regarding the hurdle clearance?
When an athlete has shoulders that are rotating how is their mid body strength will it fix itself over time and are the hips loose? Do you do trail leg forward and back ward donkey kicks and side leg raises which can be so good for your hurdlers and sprinters of all ages.
Almost my entire life we used MWF as high days and T, Thurs Sat as low. Due to travel and competitions and life these days vary but mostly this was our structure. Speed on MWF, Tempo intensive or extensive on other days.
The distinction regarding the General Preparation Phase for Speed for sprinters is different than other phases of training as it seems to break the rule of the medium question.( but does not at all) I too was trying to think about when and where CF mentioned and or discussed the differences in distances and rest and could not think of anything. This is why I wanted to speak to Ben to confirm what I was sure about regarding what I had seen.
The distinction between high intensity and low intensity days during GPP becomes less relevant in general but specifically will depend on your age, experience and background of total training years.
Unfortunately the easy runs were too easy, too relaxed (don’t know if you know what I mean) So the following runs were much better, hips were much higher, better leg recovery.
Yes, urgency. I work with youngsters who got imprinted in their minds idea from whoever they work with previously that they got time to get ready. Sloppy running is OK because we’ve plenty of time.
No!!!, Stop!!!
Every rep counts and must be done with correct form and to get to good form you need to be travelling with adequate speed which they are more than capable of doing it.
Some of the gains will come from hurdle clearance, that’s right. On average Athlete Y was about 2m to 2.1m from hurdle through out the whole distance.
It was too close for the speed he was able to carry. At higher speed h7-h9 was rotating hips to squeeze trial leg through or even worst skying the hurdles. Also breaking forces were greater.
With 2.2m we will have a better CM projection over the hurdles, reduction in breaking forces during take off allow the athlete to carry more speed and drive through the hurdle.
The main gain will come from improving running mechanics.
During step two heel is just coming too high therefore prep for the take off is not as good as it can be.
The mid body strength can be improved, there is actually massive room for improvement, we are getting there. Hips are very loose.
All those exercises that you wrote above are done during our warm up.
I guess you mean more like “lazy” or lack of effort and force production required to have proper execution.
By the way, what is forward and backward donkey kicks? something like standing glute kickback?
Several months ago you posted several of your workouts, I believe they were gpp… I searched your posts but wasn’t able to find anything, if you or anyone else can please repost the link. thanks
Send me a note RB34.
Actually, if the athlete were doing things “lazy” than they would do some abs and than I’d sent them home.
No one was sent home, lol
the runs weren’t fast enough.
Ange,
Do you classify the 300 and 500 efforts as high , medium or low ? An interesting question, since in the context of CNS and muscular stimulation they are not truly high. Nevertheless they are hard runs in the context of lactate build up.
Reason for asking. Whilst they are useful preparatory work for 100/200 sprinters in GPP they meet the demands of lactate/intensive tempo during SPP for 400 runners. And I have wondered whether they should count towards a high day per week in this phase.
I think the efforts of 300’s and 500’s were ALWAYS high for me. I do not think I ever performed any of these lengths of runs during any other phase outside of GPP. GPP is a unique phase of training that appears to break the medium. I remember asking CF if I would be doing 300’s during the indoor season. His reply was that my current ability speed made it difficult to benefit from the speeds I was traveling at based on development stage I was in. ( I improved a great deal in so many areas of my training over time but I never got to the development stages where my longer runs in any category matched the actual speed I had and developed. This was an issue for me in the later part of my outdoor competitive 100mh for sure).
CNS and muscular stimulation are going to be high for 300 and 500’s. It will be a relative thing for each person as well. And yes, I’ve not met anyone who can say these runs are easy but as time goes ahead when you do them or have done more of them the lactates reduce by virtue of improved fitness . ( so many aspects of improvement happen over time with the right training, done in the right way, volume of blood flow changes etc… )
I witnessed lactate production from higher volumes of what I would say ‘should’ be normal 100 to 200 meter sprinter tempo volumes with a 20 year old 400m hurdler male. Why is that? Do i know for sure why? i don’t need to know for sure why. All I need to know is that it was so and I could speculate why ( lack of true fitness background which includes the kind of work we have been discussing) and then begin to remedy and solve the issue. In other words once you see this what are you going to be doing about it? Start with what you have and where you are. Start where you start.
I know most of you who are here all the time know this but it’s all relative to what we have done in the past, what our existing fitness level is in the beginning and how correctly we are or have been trained.
One reason I’ve believed so strongly in carrying this information on as I have in the forums is the idea that 10 percent done correctly of this material is so far ahead of what generally goes on for so many coaches and athletes. I don’t take credit for that nor do I need to but it does blow me away how little some of this info has yet to be standardize background required fitness for sprinters.
I tried to shed some light on this discussion by posting a blog yesterday and putting it on LInkedinn and twitter and Facebook. I hope you have read it as it was inspired by the discussion here as well as by the work I have been doing this summer with the athlete I’ve spoken about.
Wednesday was our first hurdles session.
Athlete Y did
3x4x5h 5 strides at 76cm, 10m apart.
The objective was to get the take off right.
Athlete Y was rushing forward during first set, other two were quite smooth. First hurdle session back, so bit rusty, hopefully next one will be better.
Overall wasn’t bad.
We moved to one step in between over 10h 8 feet apart @76, 4sets on lead and trial leg.
3x Push-ups to max
3x Russian twists to max (4kg slam-ball)
Stretching.
Athlete X
Tempo 1200m in total
Circuit with medball 400 throws
300 abs
Stretching.
Friday
Athlete Y bit sore after first hurdle session, had to spend more time to warm up.
2x4x30m, 2x4x40m was planned, we didn’t finish set four.
We were working on back side mechanics.
Good improvements over the last couple of weeks re:technique.
Ham curls 3x10
Hip thrusts 3x20
Nordic hamstrings 3x10
300 abs.
Today
Easy bike spin 15min.
Mobility 10min
Bike blasts 6x(30" lv10/3’30" easy lv3)
More mobility and flexibility
200 hurdles walkovers/unders
300/500 core.
Stretching.
Had a good session yesterday, especially Athlete X,
We did 6x20m, 6x30m, 4x40m (planned six) Through out the session Athlete X was showing good consistency and form. I would like to see higher hip displacement talking about Athlete Y.
Bounding 6x10 LRL…
Clean progression
Squat 3x8
Three upper body exercises of athletes choice 3x10
Ham curls single leg 2x10
Gluteus activation 2x10
Nordic hamstrings 2x10
Stretching.
I feel like guys are settled and finally getting into the rhythm.
Athlete X did similar session to last week.
Athlete Y
2x4x10h, 5m apart at 84 cm, 3 steps in between.
3x10h, 3m apart, at 76cm 1 step in between trial leg and middle.
Rhythmically better than last week but still far from what I want from the athlete.
Looking quite good off the hurdle, but to the hurdle quite poor reaching bit too far.
Lots of work ahead of us.
Friday session was quite good, looks like guys are responding well to the programme.
2x4x30m, 2x4x40m.
First set they were told to go fast but relaxed, they were working on individually given element which was assigned based on their technical circumstances.
I said earlier that they are responding well to the programme, I think that is because there are couple changes which have happened this year already comparing to previous season.
One, they were active during off season.
Two, I have reduced weights session on Wednesday,
Three, because (number two) in general feel fresher, they started to race each and other up the hill. Obviously that had to be stopped after first one however they told me that they feel quite good.
Yesterday session was quite demanding for both athletes, all workout for Athlete X done on grass, Athlete did a few (6) 15m accelerations. Than we moved to tempo somewhere around boundary of extensive/intensive tempo 4, 3, 2x250, ending with rudiment over 15m and 300/300 which is 300 medball throws/ 300 abs.
Athlete Y.
3x10h 4.5m apart @84cm, 3 steps in between.
There are couple of issues.
First one, sinking in between the hurdles, not as much as last year nevertheless more than I would like.
Second one, going too fast.
3x10h 4.5m apart @91cm, 3 in between,
Pretty much as above ony bloody faster, looks and sound to me like athlete has unfinished business with the event and wants to nail it now.
Well, had to stop the workout and explained that we are going to take learned elements through the rest of the carrier therfore they need to be done right. If they are shit than it will affect our ability to run fast and consequently we will have to comeback and relearn the patterns and if that’s the case then present training sessions are waste of bloody time.
4x12h 3m apart @15inch, 3 in between, first one trying to go fast again crashed h7, had to stop and talk about changes of foot position during ground contact.
Other three were very good.
3x10 3m apart @84cm, 1 step in between for trial leg and through the middle.
Very solid execution.
Looks like Athlete Y got stronger and technically better. Last year we struggled with this very difficult drill.
Trial leg was good but middle was excellent.
100/300 workout.
Very pleased.
Monday was good too
Kids are full of energy.
6x20m, 6x30m, 6x40m
Solid and at the same time smooth runs,
Bounding for distance 6x10 ground contacts definitely see massive improvements over the last couple of weeks.
Gym: Cleans are coming together, we are still performing progression.
Squats 3x8
Three upper body exercises of athletes choice
300abs
Ham/glute complex exercises x2 (Hamstrings curls (single leg) x12
Hip thrusts (feet together, knees apart) x20, Hypertension (parallel) x10
Nordic hamstrings x10
Stretching.
Overall athletes are recognising that they are in much better place than last year which makes the whole process even more exciting.
Wermouth, something I’ve advised to other hurdle coaches: be careful with changing the distance between the hurdles, relative to competition spacing.
Understanding that it has been a historic training method of hurdle coaches to use a variety of different spacings, my argument is that changing the spacing has significantly greater consequences than changing the height. The reason is due to the changes in attainable velocity between the hurdles and subsequent implications on rhythm and timing.
As we know, the apex of importance for the elite hurdler is the rhythm and timing inherent to optimized performances. For this reason, I encourage you to consider leaving the spacing at competition spacing and only modulating the height of the hurdles and how many hurdles the repetition consists of.
I disagree with you on matter of spacing.
In hurdles velocity is highly dependant on rhythmical ability to cover the distance. Therefore rhythmical preparation/ development must go hand in hand with speed development. Talking here not only from conversation I had with top hurdles coaches but also from my own experience.
Unfortunately I wasn’t blessed with fastest hurdlers so far in regards of flat speed (except Athlete Y, faster than the rest) however rhythmical preparation allowed us to go mid/high 13s.
There are plenty of top hurdlers who are running high 10sec over 100m however the rhythmical preparation allow them to make Olympic final.
High of the hurdles has massive effect on prep for the take off, flight, ground contact, coming off the hurdle, force of the first step off the hurdle, depth of collapse, shoulder position, arm action, high of the knee over and off the hurdle and most importantly margin of error.
Right now rhythmical preparation/ improvements must take the front sit and for that reason it is the main objective of our GPP to have reasonable gains in that particular area.
Looking from the perspective of time last season we have done less rhythmical preparation and it took us about three weeks to get there. Well, I won’t make the same mistake twice.
It’s easier to progress from where the rhythm has been already established than where rhythm is playing catch up to developed speed. That’s the fact.
So as you can see, there is no reason to go to full spacing without at least reasonable preparation.
Back to spacing.
Narrow spacing is creating environment where athlete must recover foot properly and plant without over-reaching for the take off, I don’t know whether you remember that our main objectives are to improve mechanics in between hurdles and take off. Right know from my observation Athlete Y is meeting the objectives without realising it and what’s even more encouraging is that I don’t have to focus on those elements as much because they are sorting themselves out because of the spacing, at the same time giving me and the athlete that I coach opportunity to focus on something else.
One of the forum member, I think T-slow used to run on quite narrow spacing to hit the desired time objectives, and was able to have very good results.
Anyway, thanks for suggestions.
Right now rhythm rhythm rhythm and one more time rhythm.
We’ll see.
Indeed, as I stated, rhythm and timing are the defining characteristics of the elite (more so than speed which is the difference between the males and females).
Understand, however, (and I failed to clarify this in my previous post) that the specific reason changing the height is, in fact, far less consequential on rhythm and timing, then the distance between hurdles, is because the margins over which the heights are adjusted are minuscule in comparison to the distances in which the hurdle spacing is reduced.
As you know, the distances over which heights are adjusted are measured in groupings of a few centimeters, whereas, the distance the spacings are reduced is far greater.
This is the basis of my argument.
Further, it’s worth pointing out that the number of valid arguments against introducing stride length fixtures to control a pure sprinter’s gate (such as sticks or cones on the track) cannot be categorically limited to pure sprinters. The hurdler’s competition spacing is fixed/immutable, therefore, to change it by distances that far exceed any changes in height must be viewed similarly to the consequences a 100m sprinter, for example, faces if subjected to some fixed course that changes their natural stride length.
As you know, the mere presence of hurdles already does this to a hurdler. As a result, I raise the point about exercising caution in doing more of the same.
All said, there is no criticizing the results your hurdlers are experiencing; however, the teaching of the “top” coaches at any given time must be viewed objectively, otherwise it would be too easy for empiricist thinking to have failed to evolve from coaching practices a century old.
As for the spatial dynamics of foot recovery and plant foot, narrow spacing is only one option. I encourage you to consider leaving competition spacing and reducing the height to find the relationship necessary to maintain the closest derivatives of competition rhythm/timing.
It’s one thing to formulate a near analogy to power speed drills for the hurdler, such as the myriad of hurdle drills that serve as viable options; however, to take a hurdle drill, such as narrowed spacing, that far reduces competition velocity and claim it as competition hurdle development option is similar to a sprint coach claiming the same about the Running A.
So here I am making the distinction between power speed drills (skips, bounds, butt kicks, Running A…) and specific sprint training (pure accelerations, max velocity, speed endurance…)
Again, this is something for you to consider with your hurdlers in so far as what you categorize as specific training and why.
I disagree, over number of years/decades we can see countless number of extremely talented young hurdlers (juniors) who are unable to make a impact over senior height due to change of the hight of the hurdle. If what you are saying was closer to the reality we would observe much greater number of hurdlers going in the range of 13.0 unfortunately as we all know it’s not the case.
Hight of the hurdle has got far greater consequences than distance on the result because it’s influencing many more variables than spacing.
First of all the natural straight length doesn’t exist in hurdles. Also as I have pointed before, there are number of world class hurdles with less than average horizontal speed over flat distance but yet again making finals in the big competitions due to their ability to maximising their rhythm.
And for that reason hurdle rhythm must take a priority in the development in the early parts of the preparation so you can have a good enough setup of moving towards full competition spacing.
I won’t be pushing Athlete Y into full competition spacing until he’s ready (btw we have never run competition spacing in training before, EVER, it’s always a minimum one foot in while running up to six hurdles and minimum of two feet when running six hurdles and above) there is no reason to risk poor mechanics because of the stretch between hurdles in early parts of GPP.
Don’t forget that rhythm is much easier to develop while in narrow/comfortable spacing.
Also I disagree with you regarding keeping distance and reduce the hight. Let me explain why, reduction in height results in closer take off and closer touch down to/from the hurdle at the same time creating an artificial stretch in between hurdles. I tried it before I didn’t like it what I saw so I scrapped it and never went back to it.
The narrow spacing has far greater impact on developing hurdlers ability to improve their results than running A’s because it’s influencing many more components in athletes preparation such as frequency of the strides and all other I was thinking about in the previous post.
Actually Andreas Behm talks about many things on which I have very similar point of view. I am trying to explain as to why the rhythm is crucial and how I am going about that particular problem.
In World Speed Summit 2.
He’s clearly talking about it in Developing Hurdlers: #1 Tip
“DO NOT RUSH athletes into race distance spacing!”