Complex training

[mortac8]

Is the 20yd straightaway 20yds total or can you actually run a 20yd sprint on it?

[star61]

@tb2010

we’ll i meant in terms of how rb34 said that we were making it seem too complicated

i wasnt sure how to simplify it further than wanting to know why it works, and how i would structure a workout with it… so i made a thread!

It depends on what you’re looking to get out of it. Are you looking for the potentiation effect in order to increase short term training performance, or are you looking to train both strength and power synergistically, but are not necessarily interested in a short term potentiation effect during training? How the exercises are implemented in the workout, as well as the level of intensity, varies depending on what you’re doing.

[Nikoluski]

@lkh

Charlie’s comments in the Edmonton video about NOT doing drop jumps, squat jumps, and the like–even for high level athletes–also applies here.

The reason why complex weight/plyo training appears to work is analogous to why contrast training on the track appears to work: The stimulus (first) set obtains muscle recruitment at maximum or nearly maximum, then after an appropriate rest period the second set obtains maximum velocity at maximum force. But just like the assisted portion of contrast training on the track should not go faster than 10% beyond your current capabilities, stimulating your golgi mechanism waaaaaaaay beyond your present capability on the track does not serve a useful purpose (it’s training capability you can’t use). This is one of Charlie’s points early in the Edmonton lecture, and as he points out, the risk/reward of training something you can’t use is fairly obvious.

A bunch more good stuff here from one of the best in the world (McFarlane):

http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/read/4248/

My post didn’t mean to imply that I suggest such a way of training. If something similar Has to be used and without knowing the details, I would tend to try an Ascending type of session (and a Descending as a 2nd option within the week perhaps). What mortac8 has asked is crucial, regarding the running distance available. Thanks for the link by the way, which I haven’t been able to watch yet.

[ESTI]

Ascending and descending worked well for me at times. Usually 4-6 weeks only. Ascend one day, descend the next.

[tb2010]

@mortac8

Is the 20yd straightaway 20yds total or can you actually run a 20yd sprint on it?

its 40yds wall to wall with thin padding. from experience i can sprint about 20 yd without throwing on the brakes too hard

[tb2010]

@star61

It depends on what you’re looking to get out of it. Are you looking for the potentiation effect in order to increase short term training performance, or are you looking to train both strength and power synergistically, but are not necessarily interested in a short term potentiation effect during training? How the exercises are implemented in the workout, as well as the level of intensity, varies depending on what you’re doing.

i doubt i would need to use this training too often, as my meet schedule is pretty heavy and many weeks have 2 meets, which is a good enough stimulus

i would use it just to add a high intensity day if the situation arose where i thought one would fit well, but i dont have the facilities available

[tb2010]

@ESTI

Ascending and descending worked well for me at times. Usually 4-6 weeks only. Ascend one day, descend the next.

im not sure what you mean by this… as in intensity levels?

[mortac8]

@tb2010

its 40yds wall to wall with thin padding. from experience i can sprint about 20 yd without throwing on the brakes too hard

Hell that’s pretty good. I would use that to your advantage over the many who have 0 hallway. For complexes… I might just complex some stuff in between sets of olympic lifts like 1x3 low box jumps or something similar.

[ESTI]

@tb2010

im not sure what you mean by this… as in intensity levels?

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=canadian+ascending+descending+training&aq=1m&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13

[lkh]

@tb2010

i doubt i would need to use this training too often, as my meet schedule is pretty heavy and many weeks have 2 meets, which is a good enough stimulus

i would use it just to add a high intensity day if the situation arose where i thought one would fit well, but i dont have the facilities available

I don’t do much of this stuff. It gives a stimulus level that you won’t get maybe any other way, but I little bit goes a long way. I read a research paper on resisted/assisted contrast on the track (which is analogous to the Verkhoshansky “stimulus” method) last year that implies that the way it works is actually analogous to “shock training” in the Verkhoshansky terminology: The explosive part of the training causes muscle damage in the fibers causing eccentric contractions, and when the muscle fibers recover from the stimulus, both stride length and stretch-shortening velocity are enhanced. But this also means that you only get a positive training effect from the unexpected stimulus: Once your body gets used to it and it doesn’t knock down your CNS so much, it doesn’t work any more.

I’ve noticed that I only get an effect from this kind of training from doing it twice. Also, you need to follow this type of training with 1-2 weeks of recovery (don’t expect positive results on the track immediately–expect the opposite, in fact) with some weeks of regular training to accumulate the gains.

I have a week in the middle of phase 1 where I do:

2X3 squats @80-85%
3 min rest
2 sets of explosive box squats with 50 pounds of BB

I have a week early in phase 2 where I do (on opposite weekends):

2X40m accel from 3pt @100%, 5% uphill
10 min rest
2X30m flying 5% downhill

That’s all I do in a whole training year, as I don’t think any more yields a positive risk/reward.

[tb2010]

@lkh

I don’t do much of this stuff. It gives a stimulus level that you won’t get maybe any other way, but I little bit goes a long way. I read a research paper on resisted/assisted contrast on the track (which is analogous to the Verkhoshansky “stimulus” method) last year that implies that the way it works is actually analogous to “shock training” in the Verkhoshansky terminology: The explosive part of the training causes muscle damage in the fibers causing eccentric contractions, and when the muscle fibers recover from the stimulus, both stride length and stretch-shortening velocity are enhanced. But this also means that you only get a positive training effect from the unexpected stimulus: Once your body gets used to it and it doesn’t knock down your CNS so much, it doesn’t work any more.

I’ve noticed that I only get an effect from this kind of training from doing it twice. Also, you need to follow this type of training with 1-2 weeks of recovery (don’t expect positive results on the track immediately–expect the opposite, in fact) with some weeks of regular training to accumulate the gains.

I have a week in the middle of phase 1 where I do:

2X3 squats @80-85%
3 min rest
2 sets of explosive box squats with 50 pounds of BB

I have a week early in phase 2 where I do (on opposite weekends):

2X40m accel from 3pt @100%, 5% uphill
10 min rest
2X30m flying 5% downhill

That’s all I do in a whole training year, as I don’t think any more yields a positive risk/reward.

my meet schedule is pretty heavy, so if i did this type of training i would probably do it maybe once a week, a couple times in january, and maybe once in february

i just want to keep from peaking to early so i dont want to drop my workload too early in the season, meaning i needed to find a replacement high intensity workout when i cant do any full speed upright running

[tb2010]

@ESTI

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=canadian+ascending+descending+training&aq=1m&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13

ahh, i get it, thanks

[ESTI]

@tb2010

my meet schedule is pretty heavy,

If this is true, let the meets serve as your stimulus. Looking for further may not be of benefit.

What distances and how many rounds are you looking at competing in on a weekly basis?

[tb2010]

@ESTI

If this is true, let the meets serve as your stimulus. Looking for further may not be of benefit.

What distances and how many rounds are you looking at competing in on a weekly basis?

Generally I do plan on using the meets as my stimuli just since my event is the 55 running meets twice is week still isn’t very high. So if I et a week where my meets got cancleled, while it is still pretty early season I don’t want my workload to be too low (a problem I had last season). I do also sometimes run the 300 and in the end of the year meets I run the 4x2

[robin1]

@tb2010

Generally I do plan on using the meets as my stimuli just since my event is the 55 running meets twice is week still isn’t very high. So if I et a week where my meets got cancleled, while it is still pretty early season I don’t want my workload to be too low (a problem I had last season). I do also sometimes run the 300 and in the end of the year meets I run the 4x2

So why don’t you just do a couple more sprints after your actual race to get your volume for the day to 250-400m in total?

[RB34]

@tb2010

i’d like it to be simple, just everywhere i’ve read/learned about it from makes it seem pretty complicated

what are your thoughts on it? if its simple, id love to hear it

Sample Block:

Mon:
Snatch+depth jumps 6x2+6x3 rest 30sec btw snatch and 4mins btw sets

Split squats+Split jumps 3x5+3x3 rest 30sec btw squats and 3mins btw sets

Reactive gh+1 leg low box (3-4in) jumps 3x10+3x10 rest 30sec and 2-3mins btw sets

Track:
P skips h/d 2x8
Str leg bound 2x8
30 shot put throws
4x20 sled sprints
4x20 block sprints

Thur:
Cleans+hurdle hops 6x2+6x5 rest 30sec btw cleans and 4mins btw sets.

Squats+static box jumps 3x3-6+3x3 rest 30sec btw squats and 3mins btw sets

Kb swings+bounds 3x10+3x5 rest 30sec btw swings and 2mins btw sets

P skips h/d 2x8
20 shot put throws
3x20 sled
3x20 3pt
3x20 sled
3x20 blocks

Tue/Thur: Tempo/circuits

[RB34]

@ESTI

Ascending and descending worked well for me at times. Usually 4-6 weeks only. Ascend one day, descend the next.

I agree - always had great results with the CAD program in 3-4 week blocks.

Sample week.

Mon:
Depth jumps 18in 3x5
Jump squats (flat) 3x12x10%
Snatch 4x3x70
Squat 2x6x65
Runner 3x10

Thur:
Squats 3x6x75
Clean 4x3x80
Jump squats (angle) 2x12x10%
Depth jumps 2x5
Rdl 3x6x75

The running was mainly skips/bounds, throws, buildups, and stadium sprints and bounds.

[tb2010]

@RB34

Sample Block:

Mon:
Snatch+depth jumps 6x2+6x3 rest 30sec btw snatch and 4mins btw sets

Split squats+Split jumps 3x5+3x3 rest 30sec btw squats and 3mins btw sets

Reactive gh+1 leg low box (3-4in) jumps 3x10+3x10 rest 30sec and 2-3mins btw sets

Track:
P skips h/d 2x8
Str leg bound 2x8
30 shot put throws
4x20 sled sprints
4x20 block sprints

Thur:
Cleans+hurdle hops 6x2+6x5 rest 30sec btw cleans and 4mins btw sets.

Squats+static box jumps 3x3-6+3x3 rest 30sec btw squats and 3mins btw sets

Kb swings+bounds 3x10+3x5 rest 30sec btw swings and 2mins btw sets

P skips h/d 2x8
20 shot put throws
3x20 sled
3x20 3pt
3x20 sled
3x20 blocks

Tue/Thur: Tempo/circuits

thank you for the specific info, i find sample stuff very helpful since im still relatively inexperienced

[tb2010]

@robin1

So why don’t you just do a couple more sprints after your actual race to get your volume for the day to 250-400m in total?

the track closes. for the next couple weeks at meets i will be running the 55 and 300, which is 355m, plus i usually do a blocks workout (thoguh im still pretty scuky at them…) the day before meets i plan to train over so iprobably do hit that 400m mark in volume wise. just some weeks i have two meets, others i have none, and id prefer not to take an entire week off from high intensity work entirely

[robin1]

@tb2010

the track closes.

How quickly can they close the track? Do they kick you out less than 20min after your 55m race? That’s all you need to get another four 55m sprints under your belt (one every 5min). BTW: Running a 300m after your 55m race is very different to running another four or five 50 or 60m sprints: 1 submaximal acceleration vs. 4-5 maximal accelerations; never reaching top speed vs. reaching top speed 4-5 times; high lactate levels vs. low lactate levels…