Chambers sets goal at 9.65 for Paris!!

Originally posted by pierrejean
Goose1

No official 10m split times analysis were made for Donovan Bailey in Atlanta, just instantaneous speed curve by LAVEG.
See extracts from this analyse at:
http://www.chnsport.com/mainCesu.htm

Your info about Oly’88 final are wrong.
According to IAAF Scientific Report, both Johnson and Lewis reached 0.83 10m section at 50-60m.

Then the 89 to 96 Guiness book of records are wrong for suggesting that ben reached 0.83 at 30-40m point. I was quoting the 88 fnal stats that they had. Pierre jean, I clicked on the link you provided and all I got was chinese writing which I’m not affluent in. I will concede that you’re more than likely correct though. Still, the reported splits form akm 100m, I do’t think they’re are all the best splits/ fastest segments ever. Some of them must be, but not all of them.

Originally posted by akm100m
I am not sure about how accurate this info is (please correct any errors) but it is interesting to compare to Charlie’s theoretical 9.65. If somebody were to run each of the fastest 10m splits ever plus a reaction of .12 it would add up to 9.67

I personally think that 9.65 might be possible but not by any of the current top sprinters. It would probably be done by an alien in a human’s body or something like that.

Best 10m Segments
0-10m 1.71 M. Greene '97, B. Johnson '87*, L. Burrell '91
D. Mitchell '91 (1.70 B. Johnson '88*)
10-20m 1.02 C. Lewis '87, B. Johnson '87*
20-30m 0.90 L. Burrell '91 (D. Bailey 0.91 '97)
30-40m 0.87 C. Lewis '87, D. Bailey '97, B. Johnson '87*,
(B. Johnson 0.86 '88)
40-50m 0.84 C. Lewis '91, (B. Johnson '88)
50-60m 0.83 C. Lewis '88 (B. Johnson '88)
60-70m 0.84 C. Lewis '91 (B. Johnson '88)
70-80m 0.83 C. Lewis '91
80-90m 0.85 C. Lewis '87
90-100m0.86 C. Lewis '87, '91

Just some correction from the official analysis (only) i have collected from major championships, where 10m split times are often searched.
RT 0.100 Jon Drummond (Monaco’93)
0-10m 1.69 Raymond Stewart(Tokyo’91), 1.69 Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88)
10-20m 1.00 Bruny Surin (Sevilla’99), Ben Johnson* (Roma’87 qf)
20-30m 0.91 Leroy Burrell (Tokyo’91), Donovan Bailey (Athína’97), Bruny Surin (Sevilla’99), 0.90 Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88 sf)
30-40m 0.87 Carl Lewis (Roma’87), Donovan Bailey (Athína’97), 0.86 Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88)
40-50m 0.84 Carl Lewis (Tokyo’91), Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88)
50-60m 0.83 Carl Lewis & Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88)
60-70m 0.84 Carl Lewis (Tokyo’91), Ben Johnson* (Seoul’88)
70-80m 0.83 Carl Lewis (Tokyo’91)
80-90m 0.85 Carl Lewis (Roma’87 sf & f, Seoul’88 sf, Tokyo’91), Maurice Greene (Sevilla’99)
90-100m 0.86 Carl Lewis (Roma’87, Seoul’88 sf & Tokyo’91), Raymond Stewart (Roma’87), Maurice Greene (Sevilla’99)
Total 9.62, 9.60 counting Johnson.

Note: Carl Lewis was timed in 1.70 in his last 20m in Stuttgart’93 semi-final from analysis published in DLV research-project by Martin-Luther-Universität. That mean 2 10m sections in 0.85 at even pace. Knowing that his previous 20m section (60-80m) was covered in 1.72 (0.86 per 10m), i think he last 10m section (90-100m) was 0.85.

The biomechanical team of JAAA reported that Carl Lewis ran a 0.80 10m section (12.50m/s) during his 9.80 in Tokyo quarter-final, with +4.3m/s wind-assistance (in the same race, Christie ran 0.83 during 9.90w).

Looking at what has been done once again- in full races- I think there is a case for a significant improvement in the WR.

Originally posted by Goose1

Then the 89 to 96 Guiness book of records are wrong for suggesting that ben reached 0.83 at 30-40m point. I was quoting the 88 fnal stats that they had. Pierre jean, I clicked on the link you provided and all I got was chinese writing which I’m not affluent in. I will concede that you’re more than likely correct though. Still, the reported splits form akm 100m, I do’t think they’re are all the best splits/ fastest segments ever. Some of them must be, but not all of them.

Indeed, those information given by Guiness are different from the original source.

About the Chinese link, use translator
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Originally posted by Charlie Francis
Just for fun, I’m going to post a set of theoretical split times for a 9.65. Everybody can compare their own splits in the privacy of their own homes. Pierrejean, can you provide Dwains splits from his Paris run?

R/T .12
10m - 1.81 - 1.69
20m - 2.85 - 1.03
30m - 3.77 - 0.92
40m - 4.63 - 0.86
50m - 5.47 - 0.84
60m - 6.30 - 0.83
70m - 7.12 - 0.82
80m - 7.95 - 0.83
90m - 8.79 - 0.84
100m 9.65 - 0.86
These are the cards gentlemen.
Reed em and weep!

I have updated my analysis of Paris’02 race, results are a little bit different form those i posted once, as they are more accurate.
I use 2 footage, the main was from the railed camera following sprinters on the left side of the track in the running direction. I have it in real speed (25HZ), and slow motion, but i choosed the real speed one as the images for the body positions and the marks on the track were clear, nearly without paralax.
With 25 frames/sec, i had an image each 0.04, wich i divided in 4 parts to reach a 0.01 accuracy. This was quite easy as i said the footage was really good.
I use the second footage (camera in front of the finish line on the upper crowds) to check the results. (The footage didn’t showed Collins’ race all the way, so to be honest i can’t give complete analyse for him).

Tim MONTGOMERY
RT 0.104
10m 1.85 1.74
20m 2.91 1.06
30m 3.82 0.91
40m 4.70 0.88
50m 5.54 0.84
60m 6.37 0.83
70m 7.21 0.84
80m 8.05 0.84
90m 8.90 0.85
100m 9.78 0.88

Dwain CHAMBERS
RT 0.140
10m 1.89 1.75
20m 2.92 1.03
30m 3.84 0.92
40m 4.72 0.88
50m 5.57 0.85
60m 6.41 0.84
70m 7.26 0.85
80m 8.11 0.88
90m 8.98 0.87
100m 9.87 0.89

Jon DRUMMOND
RT 0.131
10m 1.89 1.76
20m 2.91 1.02
30m 3.84 0.93
40m 4.73 0.89
50m 5.60 0.87
60m 6.44 0.84
70m 7.30 0.86
80m 8.17 0.87
90m 9.07 0.90
100m 9.97 0.90

Kim COLLINS
RT 0.158
10m 1.94 1.78
20m 2.96
30m -
40m -
50m 5.64
60m 6.48 0.84
70m 7.34 0.86
80m 8.21 0.87
90m 9.09 0.88
100m 9.98 0.89

Official results for this race:
http://www2.iaaf.org/GP02/GPFParis/Results/data/M/100/ERF.asp

Photofinish
http://www2.iaaf.org/GPF02/multimedia/get.asp?MediaID=2465&imgh=photo

Here’s an exercise for Dwain fans:
Take the splits that he recorded in Paris and list them side by side with my proposed splits and see how even the improvement must be (obviously, there’s more room for improvement over the last few splits- but I’m thinking primarily from 0 to 70m). This is not an idle exercise, since, everyone has the possibility of improving individual splits with concentration and isolation and adequate recovery. Whose going to start?

Originally posted by THEONE
Would’nt an analysis of Dwain’s stride length and stride frequency be needed to really see what is possiple with him.
To hit a 0.82 ten meter split I would guess a SF of over 5.? would be need or a SL of about 9 feet. Which one is his strength, and can it be improved.

re-stride analysis for Chambers 9.87 in Paris (see methods in my earlier post; stride frequency is searched from the time at each step; stride length is searched from the product of st. frequency and speed, and checked from the number of strides between the marks on the track…)

Distance / time for 10m section / stride length (m) / stride frequency (HZ)
RT 0.140
00-010m 1.75 / 1.41 / 4.09
10-020m 1.03 / 1.97 / 4.92
20-030m 0.92 / 2.19 / 4.96
30-040m 0.88 / 2.32 / 4.89
40-050m 0.85 / 2.36 / 4.97
50-060m 0.84 / 2.46 / 4.84
60-070m 0.85 / 2.44 / 4.83
70-080m 0.85 / 2.47 / 4.75
80-090m 0.87 / 2.45 / 4.69
90-100m 0.89 / 2.71 / 4.15

To compare, i’ve choosed to give results from JAAF biomechanical team for Tokyo’91 and Carl Lewis fomer WR 9.86. 9.86 and 9.87 are close times, but the race patterns are different.
RT 0.140
00-010m 1.74 / 1.39 / 4.13
10-020m 1.08 / 1.92 / 4.81
20-030m 0.92 / 2.44 / 4.45
30-040m 0.89 / 2.55 / 4.41
40-050m 0.84 / 2.56 / 4.66
50-060m 0.85 / 2.42 / 4.86
60-070m 0.84 / 2.50 / 4.76
70-080m 0.83 / 2.71 / 4.45
80-090m 0.87 / 2.65 / 4.34
90-100m 0.86 / 2.57 / 4.53

I use to divide 100m race in different parts, from the various time and stride analysis I’ve red.
10m + 30m + 30m + 30m = 100m.
Briefly, those are:
First section (0-10m) includes Reaction Time and start.
Second section (10-40m) includes acceleration. After the 40m point, usually stride frequency reach its maximum value and then decrease while stride length is still increasing (they usually don’t reach their max value in the mean time)
Third section (40-70m) is where sprinters reach their max speed. If they reach it before or after, there’s a mistake in energy distribution.
Last part (70-100m) is where they reach max stride length, which is often bigger in the last 10m as sprinter loose there body control and their stride frequency for various reason (stopping effort before finish line, rushing on the line, fatigue, bad concentration, etc). That’s the speed maintenance phase.

0-10m: with or without RT, Chambers and Lewis have nearly the same times, but even if stride length and frequency are similar, Lewis had longer legs than Chambers, and also will reach longer strides, so we can say that in this part, Lewis is focusing on smooth ground contacts and stride frequency (opposite as he did in Rome or Seoul).
0-30m: The aim of Lewis was apparently to have high cadence in his first stride in order to put long strides on his former frequency. The result is that he reach too long strides too early, while Chambers is more steady and is faster here.
30-70m: after those little troubles, Lewis is still searching a balance between his stride length and frequency, between pushing hard on the track and having the shortest time possible on the ground, searching the feeling of speed (note that we was clearly behind the leaders at this point of the race). Chambers curves are “normal”, nothing special to say here.
70-100m: back to Lewis: as a result of this, he reach is max speed very late, finally finding easy on his technique and seeing the others are decelerating. Chambers on the other hand looses his concentration, we can notice it from his strong decrease in frequency, resulting in a longer stride average in the last 10m. From the photofinish, we see that he was close to run in 9.86 (his 9.87 was rounded-up from around 9.867), and I think he could have run 9.85 if he had maintain his effort until the line.

But we’re far from 9.65!

Let’s see Chambers’ progression between Sevilla WCh’99 (from Spanish CSD Laboratory of Biomechanics) where he set his pre-2002 best and Paris’02

SEVILLA 22.08.1999
Wind Speed +0.2m/s
Temperature 30°C
Humidity 34%

PARIS 14.09.2002
Wind Speed +2.0m/s
Temperature 22°C
Humidity 53%

RT 0.140 both
010m 1.87 (1.73) / 1.89 (1.75)
020m 2.89 (1.02) / 2.92 (1.03)
030m 3.81 (0.92) / 3.84 (0.92)
040m 4.71 (0.90) / 4.72 (0.88)
050m 5.57 (0.86) / 5.57 (0.85)
060m 6.42 (0.85) / 6.41 (0.84)
070m 7.29 (0.87) / 7.26 (0.85)
080m 8.18 (0.89) / 8.11 (0.85)
090m 9.07 (0.89) / 8.98 (0.87)
100m 9.97 (0.90) / 9.87 (0.89)

Weather condition where different of course, but here what I see from this:
Same Reaction Time, and it’s in accordance with the other RT I’ve seen for him.
We see that in Paris he wasn’t as good as in 1999, but that’s probably because in Sevilla he had his peak form, while Paris came at the end of the season, analysis of his other races in 2002 would tell us.
He reach his maximum velocity in the same section, but his acceleration his better.
He has improve clearly his speed maintenance, but difficult to evaluate the wind assistance here.
Reaction Time & start, and maximum velocity are his shortcomings. Speed maintenance now is good (he losses 0.05 between his best section and the last one, that’s good assuming he didn’t pushed his effort until the end). His strength is acceleration, there’s not as much room for improvement here as in the other parts of the race.

I try a plan for his splits if he wants to run 9.65, with improvements for each 10m sections from his Paris race:
RT 0.110 -0.03
1.81 (1.70) -0.05
2.82 (1.01) -0.02
3.72 (0.90) -0.02
4.59 (0.87) -0.01
5.44 (0.85) -0.00
6.27 (0.83) -0.01
7.10 (0.83) -0.02
7.94 (0.84) -0.01
8.79 (0.85) -0.02
9.65 (0.86) -0.03
I compared his stride patterns with Ben Johnson’s as they had nearly the same height and also stride length. It’s clear that Ben put more frequency (reaching just over 5 steps/sec) at the start and in the acceleration that Dwain (and a little shorter stride length), The key is probably here to improve the first part of the race.

Would’nt an analysis of Dwain’s stride length and stride frequency be needed to really see what is possiple with him.
To hit a 0.82 ten meter split I would guess a SF of over 5.? would be need or a SL of about 9 feet. Which one is his strength, and can it be improved.

If Tim can improve his first 10 meters, keep that awesome .104 RT, and keep the rest of his race (except for the sluggish last 10), I think we are not too far from what Charlie is talking about. Charlie hinted about this on the old forum when the splits of Ben, Mo, and Tim were put up side by side.

I hope my post hasn’t closed this topic, i’d like to have some comments or divergent opinions about it!

About split times, i’m searching data about Goodwill Games’86 in Moscow. I know Soviet did split time/stride analysis for male 100m (BenJ 9.95 and C.Lewis 10.06) for 0-30, 30-60, 60-100m sections, and i suspect they did the same analysis about women 100m (Ashford and Drechsler 10.91 both).
Can someone post this analyse? Charlie maybe? Thank you.

I never saw an analysis of the race, though it would be skewed because Ben’s blocks slipped at the start, probaby costing him .05 or so.

Originally posted by Charlie Francis
First off, I don’t think the difference between Ben and the new group is anywhere near so large. First, if Ben had run through the line, he could have gone 9.72 to 9.73, second, on the new, faster tracks, and louder speaker systems in the blocks, Ben could have gained another.02. So now we’re looking at maybe 9.70, and if his career had not come to a screeching halt, he would have had several years to improve. Also, I’ve predicted a 9.68- it was Dwain who suggested 9.65.

Assuming that your theory of faster tracks and speakers, etc. is true (seems very reasonable) then considering that say even for half the improvement (9.73 - 9.83 = 0.10 = 0.05) for the next year (again seemingly reasonable) then you’re already looking at 9.65 in the year to follow! Honestly, I don’t think it would have been that outrageous for Ben to have predicted a 9.60 for him to reach by the end of his career.

Derek

Actually, i have men analysis for Movska, but i need the women one, especially for Drechsler’s 10.91 PB.

for those who are interested, i give comparison for 1986, 1987, 1988 best races for BJ:

Intermediate times

Moskva’86 / Roma’87 / Seoul’88
RT ? / 0.109 / 0.132
0-030m 3.86 (?.??) / 3.80 (3.69) / 3.80 (3.66)
0-060m 6.47 (2.61) / 6.38 (2.58) / 6.33 (2.53)
0-100m 9.95 (3.48) / 9.83 (3.45) / 9.79 (3.46)

It’s difficult to compare stride analyse (length and frequency) for each sections as USSR coaches used different methods than IAAF scientific research group in Roma and Seoul.
We can just compare number of strides, stride length (metre) and stride frequency (HZ) for the whole race:
Movska’86 46.5 - 2m15 - 4.67HZ
Roma’87 46.2 - 2m16 - 4.70HZ
Seoul’88 46.6 - 2.14 - 4.76HZ

When accelerating up to max velocity should the focus be on increasing frequency? Charlie cues pumping the arms faster when entering the in zone for flying sprints(a focus on frequency?), should it be the same for races.

As a general rule, max velocity occurs between the point of max velocity (between 30 and 40m) and the point of stride length stabilisation (after 60m)

So if one hit a higher MAX VELOCITY during any race over 100m
that sprinter should win? Is that what you guys are saying?

If so what if one hit 10.75m/sec at 45m while the other athletes hit
10.5m/sec at 55m. Will the 10.85m/sec sprinter still win this race?

While the slower sprinter holds their speed 30m, and the other holds it only for 20m… still the higher speed win?

I know in Speed Trap CF stated that why Lewis/Johnson was so great
because of their max velocity was so other compared to the others.

What should the athlete feel? His steps getting faster as he accelerates to max? When I ran I would pump my arms as hard as I could, but I also over-pushed like hell which made me only an average sprinter. So it’s obvious I don’t know the feeling of a correct build-up to top speed. That’s what I want to know,the feeling.
Re Kenny: no, I am not saying that.

I’ve never run in 10sec either but i’ve got my theory on this: during competition, an athlete shouldn’t think during the race. After a great race, some athletes don’t even remember what happened during the race, some said they didn’t felt their body. I think athletes should be on a special state of mind where’s they don’t move by their head but by an automatic thing. Thinking and brain work is during practice, where the automatic thing is built. that’s where NLP is interesting because you can enter in that zone automatically just during the race (assuming the NLP has been teached correctly). For the feelings, i like the Seagrave 100m way to run as it gives to athletes different feelings for each sections (quite hard to master though):

0-10m: start + pure acceleration, hold breath. Technical advice: “push, push”. (The fastest sections are the ones where you hold breath)
10-15m: expire, inspire
15-30m: transition phase, gradual change to get closer to max speed phase, hold breath. Technical advice: “high knee”
30-35m: expire, inspire
35-55m: Max speed I. hold breath. Technical advice: “landing foot over support leg’s knee, touch down close to COM”
55-60m: expire, inspire
60-85m: Max speed II. hold breath. Tech. advice: “knee lift very high + towing on the ground”
85-90m: expire + inspire
90-105m: Speed maintenance phase. hold breath. Tech. advice: “track is burning + finish”.

Gwen Torrence worked with this scheme with Seagrave in 1991, and she said "it wasn’t me who was running, i was hearing your voice!)
(from a sprint colloque in France in 1994).

Pierrejean, thanks for the reply. I do agree with you on the need to keep things on automatic during a race.
Yesterday I was able to watch some quality sprinters(10.12W,10.27,20.38) workout and I notice they were all doing something different to accelerate up to max; this is why I have these questions.
The workout was 120m off the curve, the curve was ran at sub max pace and then they would pick it up down the straight. I notice that one athlete would increase the range of motion with his arms every time he wanted to go faster(to the point where his hands would rise higher than chin level). The 2nd athlete would lean foward, rise on his toes and take what looks like baby steps. The 3rd athlete showed no changes from what I could see, smooth all the way. And the 4th athlete look like he was bounding and he would just pick up the pace of the bound to go faster. He also had the loudest foot strikes of the group,(yet he is the smallest 5’7" 13?lb) he is also the fastest.
I am doubting all of these approaches can be right. Thoughts?

Difficult to say as i haven’t seen them. But from what you SAW, if it doesn’t look right, it’s not efficient. Eyes are often more efficient than biomechanical analysis.