aahahahahahahahah
This has gone way off topic with discussion of big city leanness vs. combines and celebrities-none of this has anything to do with the original topic. Back to the original point, to get down to very low body fat numbers much like athletic performances it’s going to be more difficult than to obtain average numbers. It’s much easier for a guy to go from 10.50 to 10.30 than it will be for the 10.00 guy to get to 9.80. It’s really that simple and the experience of many athletes and coaches will tell you that. Once you approach the limits of human performance, the improvements are smaller but you appreciate any improvements. If Bolt or Gay or Powell knock off just a few more hundredths of their pr’s that represents a fantastic increase in output. In the same vein, it’s more difficult to obtain improvements in body comp. once you have obtained lower numbers-to go from 14-12 % relatively speaking will be easier than going from 6-4% or if even using something completely proportional. The experience of many coaches and athletes here and elsewhere will confirm this.
[b]Race Radio, If you simply want to argue, debate over nonsense then I’m done arguing with you since the arguement keeps moving off topic. If you’d like to get back to the topic then fine. All of us come here to learn but if you feel you know everything and that others do not have valid opinions then you are not open to learning and you are only here to argue and show us all what you know-or don’t. I’m not sure what your experience is but I seriously doubt by your commentary you have enough valuable experience to tell people what they are doing is right or wrong. You have disputed and dismissed the words and experience of a number of accomplished coaches(I’m not referring to myself) and athletes since you’ve been on site-sometimes it’s better to listen than to always be talking(posting).
The way most of us have evolved as coaches and athletes is that we are willing to learn and listen and not always talk (in this case posting about the inane). For the inexperienced, talking and asking questions is a great way to arrive at a better understanding of subject matter and clarification on all topics. Charlie learned from Gerard Mach, Percy Duncan, Harry Jerome, Horst Hille and many others so I think you can learn from others as well. If not, why are you here?
Please read the thread posted by no23 as I feel you can derive much benefit from this. In honor of the great Charlie Francis, I ask that you do not use this site to advance your own ego and tell the people on this site about how wrong all of their ideas are but rather learn from those who have much experience that you could benefit from if you are willing to learn.[/b]
Again, My mom doesn’t have to be a pro/college athlete to lose weight. If she wants to get down to around 10-12%, she will get there, through increasing activity levels & lowering calories. I’m sorry if I’m not made to sound something so natural as losing weight into something so complex. Forgive me.
People keep telling me it isn’t simple. Agreed. Constant visits to a dunkin doughnuts store, a 2000 calorie McDonalds meal with all the trimmings, soda’s, toastie pastries for breakfasts, fries etc etc… It gets even harder when some people stay at home & consume north of 8000 calories. I take this view, because as a keen cyclist, I know a Tour rider is on around 6000 calories per day, but that is in relation to 6 hours of hard work in the saddle. So yes, getting lazy, stuffing your face & your going to make something very simple very hard for yourself.
Fortunately for me, with the god-given gift of mental strength, I made to make fat-loss look very simple indeed.
Pioneer,
Very well articulated. There are always people who just like to argue. I personally don’t care what gets said. I know that perhaps people don’t like their paradigm shifted, but it is necessary sometimes. Trust me, Ian King and Poliquin would tell you that you need to think about what you say. Charlie as well, but not so bluntly. I have done what you said, I go to the source to learn information first hand. I can tell you that people are much more likely to espouse their opinion a little more aggresively than perhaps if we were in a seminar setting. If it’s one thing I know well, it’s bodycomp. I have competed in 19 bodybuilding shows and trained more than 200 competitors for shows. My people are usually some of the leanest in show. It doesn’t come easy. Most guys start dieting for a show 16-20 weeks out. Most of these are around 10-12% bodyfat going in. It literally takes constant macro nutrient cycling and reduction along with a lot of cardio and 6 days per week of lifting. Some lose 30-50 lbs in search of that “ripped look”. It is draining to say the least. One of the shows I did was after spring ball my sophomore year of college. I was full bore diet through spring ball and tired and in the word’s of my coach “looking like I needed a sandwich”. I caught heavy shit for tripping on a wheel route out of the back field. Coach was pissed. It went something like “g***#@$!%^@%$# F**&^#%# bodybuilding”. He told me my skiiny ass better weigh 225 come fall. I told him don’t stress. My whole point was, I went from strong athletic guy to a “weak kneed turd” acording to my coach. While eating a great diet, my leaness directly decreased my performance alot. The simple science is, you need bodyfat to fuel sustained fat. Body can only store a small amount of glycogen. 2+ hour practices burn that off halfway through. No bodyfat, no energy. Big problem.
oops, meant effort not fat. Got lost writing War and Peace
Elite cyclists are also extremely lean.
There is very little bodyfat on them even at the start of each stage race. How do they get round the problem of having very little bodyfat but managing to get through 6 hour races day in day out, which takes incredible energy?.
you can argue till your blue in the face, my experience tells me you are incorrect. As has been stated ad nauseum, there are no easy paths to being lean. Obviously it is a big advantage to weigh 130 lbs to ride a bike for hours. Anyone would be lean if they rode Tour De France distances.They also eat and ingest carbs and glycerol during the race. Pretty hard to do that in middle of game. I try to be professional and perhaps encourage you to think a little more deeply about what you say, but it is obvious that you know more than many of us. No insult to you, but I Bow out of this discussion as I believe it is a turning into a quagmire.
I believe it turned back after the 2nd and 3rd posts…
And my experience tells me your incorrect.
Its all about adaptation & adaptation is a very slow process, but very achievable. Its not playing football at 180 lbs & then draining your weight to 156, 3 weeks down the line.
Even in the bodybuilding world, seeing Ronnie Coleman at a show, he doesn’t look drained (mentally), the guy comes alive when he peaks. Maybe you just didn’t have the experience or knowledge to know when enough was enough, seems that way.
You CAN have very little bodyfat & have lots of energy, hence the elite cyclist. Again, its months/years of adaptation. Not stuffing your face, then cutting erratically. That is where you will get into problems. I know I’m right, I’ve certainly been there.
Your making it all too complex for yourselves.
Speed, nothing in life comes easy, for anybody. Life is ours & for some its bodybuilding
If bodybuilders peak for a show at 10-12% bodyfat, please hold a thought for the cyclist.
Thats 10-12% to start. 3-4% at finish to clarify another obviously misunderstood point.
Obviously, that is tremendous improvement.
Any idea as to the rates of change with some of them? That is, how much does the progress slow as time moves on?
Most hit 6-7% relatively quickly. We always say, you should be ready to walk on stage 2-3 weeks out or you are behind. I was talking to one of my former protege’s and was showing him this thread and he was laughing his butt off. He said “anyone who think it’s easy to manage being that lean, has never been that lean”. You have to work hard those last 6-8 weeks to get that last 2% off. I can tell you, the one year I did a 20 weeks diet. I started at 13%@ 247lbs. I ate 9 times per day every 2 hours. It was a chore. A month in, I was 10%@263 lbs. 12 week later, 4 % @ 248 lbs. It was getting up at 3:30 a.m., doing 45 mins of cardio, home shower eat. First client 5 a.m. Train clients til 12, lift, 30 more mins cardio. Train clients 3 til 10, 30 more mins cardio. Go home, sleep, back up 3:30 am. By no means easy. Won the whole show though so I guess it was worth it.
Did I put a thumbs down on my own post? I don’t even know ho to do that. Haha
No offense but bodybuilding isnt running or lifting to get strong. So lean is part of the event but has nothing to do with sport other than bodybuilding.
Mauro is one of the best when I comes to this sort of thing, he has the diet, the training and the background as one of the top MD’s out there for elite everything. Plus he did it himself. Check out his sites. He worked with me from September till December before the Olympics trials and I am about as hard core as they come and I didnt have the energy to properly train on his diet. Finally Charlie said forget it. What is the point.
If I want to look good I can do it with Mauros help for sure.
If I want to run fast I will get Charlie’s help and look good anyway.
you can’t look good and hope to run fast.
In high level athletics performance first and aesthetics second.
Maybe I am missing the point.
that is exactly what this round about thread has been about. I essentially said the same thing. No offense, but bodybuilders are not athletes. I just took up competing so I wouldn’t turn into a fat ex football player. Some took up track or other activities so as not to sit around. Unless you are a super lean genetic mutant, getting too lean hurts performance. I agree with you Ange. WHen I diet super hard, I fell like crap. Like I said, that’s on north of 3000 calories per day. If I altered my macro nutrients, I woul never get as lean, but I would have energy. It’s a catch 22 for most of us.
speedcoach, maybe I misunderstood, but you were consuming 3000 calories per day during a lean out phase?
speedcoach is a big dude! no joke 
somewhere there abouts. I was eating roughly 4500 per day trying to get mass up and I think I peaked out the one year at 280 lbs. I am 5’9" so I guess I was kinda big. I hated eating that much. If I cut calories to like 3000, I could lose 25 lbs in like 5-6 weeks without doing anything different. Now metabolism is not what it used to be. Fatter than I am comfortable with right now. Skipping too many meals and replacing them with protein bars and such. Guess I picked up my wifes baby weight. Haha
I 2nd that emotion!