For one, LA is fairly large city and the number of riders in a peloton I would think to be a much smaller number than the total inhabitants of a very large city. I believe finding leaner people among nearly 4 million people than a pack of cyclists should not be that difficult. I’m not sure what your point is?
With regards to cyclists, strength power athletes in particular, horizontal jumpers, 400m, 400 hurdlers, and even 800m runners are going to be on average leaner than even elite endurance athletes. I’m not sure where your 180 number comes from though as it sounds like random speculation as is the Millions of average people with bf% less than 10-12. Among what base of population? The world’s, in NYC, where?
How many of these everyday people get down to the same degree of leanness as the elite athletes? Again, as I mentioned earlier, the average person is not as lean as the average athlete-all your reckoning aside there is actual evidence particularly among college age individuals that athletes are leaner than the non-athletes. That is a fact.
Many average people are categorized of late as “skinny fat”, small people, though not necessarily short, that people assume are lean but they simply carry very little muscle and are not lean. They don’t necessarily weigh much but would not, by most standards, be considered lean. I.E. just because someone is not large and might even be considered small or petite does not mean they are lean. I’ve seen this time and again with people’s bf% being checked.
Now back to original point, though, and that is that it’s more difficult to achieve the sort of leanness where the numbers might be as low as 4-6% than it is to get to 15-16% since it’s more difficult to lose bodyfat once one approaches the human limits of leanness. Top level bodybuilders speak of this often as it’s easier to lose early on but the last few percentage points are much more difficult to lose. Someone like speedcoach could speak to this with some experience which I don’t have.
Who said a non-athlete could not be lean? I certainly did not.
[b]
Now it is possible that the total number of people you might find in a large city might be leaner than the total number of participants in a combine but then we might be talking about finding leaner people in a city with a population in the millions vs. 200-300 in a combine so that would not be hard to believe. I’m really not sure what your point is with this?
Naturally, that point you made is completely off topic as I have been speaking of averages. The average person in a big city or out in the country for that matter will not be as lean as elite athletes at a combine. The statistics available on college age individuals dispute that. [/b]
The average person can certainly be as lean as an athlete.
When we look at the whole scheme of things, your going to find leaner people in the general public (lower than 10-12%) than in the athletic world & at much higher rates. Thats my point. You don’t need to be an athlete. The goal of looking good in your clothes, losing weight etc among the general public can provide higher motivation than running fast/jumping higher.
If the average person wants to be as lean as an athlete, they will be as lean. Its not 1 rule for the general public, 1 rule for athletes. Fat loss runs the same across the board for everybody.
The number is dependent on the person. If an average person wants to go lower than an athlete, then they will go lower.
There are around 180-200 starters in the Tour De France. These guys are lean but your sure to find a higher number of leaner people, just among the female contingent just in LA.
This female contingent certainly know the formula for going low.
Again, your going to find leaner people in the general public (lower than 10-12%) than in the athletic world & at much higher rates.
There is my brother & father who are leaner than 10% (particularly my brother), there not athletes.
What I’m saying is, if an average person wanted to be as low as sub 10% or go as low as an athlete, then they will achieve there goal through a basic routine. Its on the average person to comply.
With a population of average people in the billions vs. 200-300 in a combine, that would not be hard to believe.
You are talking about genetics for some people. Africans are leaner than Europeans, who are leaner than Inuit. First, your assertion that fat loss is made easy is presumptious at best. To the contrary, bodies are extremely efficient at storing fat, not giving it up. That is not a refutable fact. It’s called survival. Goes back to our hunter and gatherer days of feast and famine. There are plenty of lean people in the world who are not athletes. If they took up atjhletics, would that be an advantage. Not neccesarily. It’s okay to have your belief system, bobody is taking that away from you. Many of us who have years of experience at this think otherwise. As for commenting that people sabotage themselves; if fat loss was easy, wouldn’t we all be walking around ripped. It’s certainly harder to get to sub 5% than it is to get to sub 10%. When I campeted in bodybuilding, I was considered fat at 10%. It’s all relative, but not easy.
This has gone way off topic with discussion of big city leanness vs. combines and celebrities-none of this has anything to do with the original topic. Back to the original point, to get down to very low body fat numbers much like athletic performances it’s going to be more difficult than to obtain average numbers. It’s much easier for a guy to go from 10.50 to 10.30 than it will be for the 10.00 guy to get to 9.80. It’s really that simple and the experience of many athletes and coaches will tell you that. Once you approach the limits of human performance, the improvements are smaller but you appreciate any improvements. If Bolt or Gay or Powell knock off just a few more hundredths of their pr’s that represents a fantastic increase in output. In the same vein, it’s more difficult to obtain improvements in body comp. once you have obtained lower numbers-to go from 14-12 % relatively speaking will be easier than going from 6-4% or if even using something completely proportional. The experience of many coaches and athletes here and elsewhere will confirm this.
[b]Race Radio, If you simply want to argue, debate over nonsense then I’m done arguing with you since the arguement keeps moving off topic. If you’d like to get back to the topic then fine. All of us come here to learn but if you feel you know everything and that others do not have valid opinions then you are not open to learning and you are only here to argue and show us all what you know-or don’t. I’m not sure what your experience is but I seriously doubt by your commentary you have enough valuable experience to tell people what they are doing is right or wrong. You have disputed and dismissed the words and experience of a number of accomplished coaches(I’m not referring to myself) and athletes since you’ve been on site-sometimes it’s better to listen than to always be talking(posting).
The way most of us have evolved as coaches and athletes is that we are willing to learn and listen and not always talk (in this case posting about the inane). For the inexperienced, talking and asking questions is a great way to arrive at a better understanding of subject matter and clarification on all topics. Charlie learned from Gerard Mach, Percy Duncan, Harry Jerome, Horst Hille and many others so I think you can learn from others as well. If not, why are you here?
Please read the thread posted by no23 as I feel you can derive much benefit from this. In honor of the great Charlie Francis, I ask that you do not use this site to advance your own ego and tell the people on this site about how wrong all of their ideas are but rather learn from those who have much experience that you could benefit from if you are willing to learn.[/b]
Again, My mom doesn’t have to be a pro/college athlete to lose weight. If she wants to get down to around 10-12%, she will get there, through increasing activity levels & lowering calories. I’m sorry if I’m not made to sound something so natural as losing weight into something so complex. Forgive me.
People keep telling me it isn’t simple. Agreed. Constant visits to a dunkin doughnuts store, a 2000 calorie McDonalds meal with all the trimmings, soda’s, toastie pastries for breakfasts, fries etc etc… It gets even harder when some people stay at home & consume north of 8000 calories. I take this view, because as a keen cyclist, I know a Tour rider is on around 6000 calories per day, but that is in relation to 6 hours of hard work in the saddle. So yes, getting lazy, stuffing your face & your going to make something very simple very hard for yourself.
Fortunately for me, with the god-given gift of mental strength, I made to make fat-loss look very simple indeed.
Pioneer,
Very well articulated. There are always people who just like to argue. I personally don’t care what gets said. I know that perhaps people don’t like their paradigm shifted, but it is necessary sometimes. Trust me, Ian King and Poliquin would tell you that you need to think about what you say. Charlie as well, but not so bluntly. I have done what you said, I go to the source to learn information first hand. I can tell you that people are much more likely to espouse their opinion a little more aggresively than perhaps if we were in a seminar setting. If it’s one thing I know well, it’s bodycomp. I have competed in 19 bodybuilding shows and trained more than 200 competitors for shows. My people are usually some of the leanest in show. It doesn’t come easy. Most guys start dieting for a show 16-20 weeks out. Most of these are around 10-12% bodyfat going in. It literally takes constant macro nutrient cycling and reduction along with a lot of cardio and 6 days per week of lifting. Some lose 30-50 lbs in search of that “ripped look”. It is draining to say the least. One of the shows I did was after spring ball my sophomore year of college. I was full bore diet through spring ball and tired and in the word’s of my coach “looking like I needed a sandwich”. I caught heavy shit for tripping on a wheel route out of the back field. Coach was pissed. It went something like “g***#@$!%^@%$# F**&^#%# bodybuilding”. He told me my skiiny ass better weigh 225 come fall. I told him don’t stress. My whole point was, I went from strong athletic guy to a “weak kneed turd” acording to my coach. While eating a great diet, my leaness directly decreased my performance alot. The simple science is, you need bodyfat to fuel sustained fat. Body can only store a small amount of glycogen. 2+ hour practices burn that off halfway through. No bodyfat, no energy. Big problem.
There is very little bodyfat on them even at the start of each stage race. How do they get round the problem of having very little bodyfat but managing to get through 6 hour races day in day out, which takes incredible energy?.
you can argue till your blue in the face, my experience tells me you are incorrect. As has been stated ad nauseum, there are no easy paths to being lean. Obviously it is a big advantage to weigh 130 lbs to ride a bike for hours. Anyone would be lean if they rode Tour De France distances.They also eat and ingest carbs and glycerol during the race. Pretty hard to do that in middle of game. I try to be professional and perhaps encourage you to think a little more deeply about what you say, but it is obvious that you know more than many of us. No insult to you, but I Bow out of this discussion as I believe it is a turning into a quagmire.
Its all about adaptation & adaptation is a very slow process, but very achievable. Its not playing football at 180 lbs & then draining your weight to 156, 3 weeks down the line.
Even in the bodybuilding world, seeing Ronnie Coleman at a show, he doesn’t look drained (mentally), the guy comes alive when he peaks. Maybe you just didn’t have the experience or knowledge to know when enough was enough, seems that way.
You CAN have very little bodyfat & have lots of energy, hence the elite cyclist. Again, its months/years of adaptation. Not stuffing your face, then cutting erratically. That is where you will get into problems. I know I’m right, I’ve certainly been there.
Most hit 6-7% relatively quickly. We always say, you should be ready to walk on stage 2-3 weeks out or you are behind. I was talking to one of my former protege’s and was showing him this thread and he was laughing his butt off. He said “anyone who think it’s easy to manage being that lean, has never been that lean”. You have to work hard those last 6-8 weeks to get that last 2% off. I can tell you, the one year I did a 20 weeks diet. I started at 13%@ 247lbs. I ate 9 times per day every 2 hours. It was a chore. A month in, I was 10%@263 lbs. 12 week later, 4 % @ 248 lbs. It was getting up at 3:30 a.m., doing 45 mins of cardio, home shower eat. First client 5 a.m. Train clients til 12, lift, 30 more mins cardio. Train clients 3 til 10, 30 more mins cardio. Go home, sleep, back up 3:30 am. By no means easy. Won the whole show though so I guess it was worth it.
No offense but bodybuilding isnt running or lifting to get strong. So lean is part of the event but has nothing to do with sport other than bodybuilding.
Mauro is one of the best when I comes to this sort of thing, he has the diet, the training and the background as one of the top MD’s out there for elite everything. Plus he did it himself. Check out his sites. He worked with me from September till December before the Olympics trials and I am about as hard core as they come and I didnt have the energy to properly train on his diet. Finally Charlie said forget it. What is the point.
If I want to look good I can do it with Mauros help for sure.
If I want to run fast I will get Charlie’s help and look good anyway.
you can’t look good and hope to run fast.
In high level athletics performance first and aesthetics second.
Maybe I am missing the point.
that is exactly what this round about thread has been about. I essentially said the same thing. No offense, but bodybuilders are not athletes. I just took up competing so I wouldn’t turn into a fat ex football player. Some took up track or other activities so as not to sit around. Unless you are a super lean genetic mutant, getting too lean hurts performance. I agree with you Ange. WHen I diet super hard, I fell like crap. Like I said, that’s on north of 3000 calories per day. If I altered my macro nutrients, I woul never get as lean, but I would have energy. It’s a catch 22 for most of us.
