i am not sure about this; could you expand? what kind of distances are we talking about and also at what speeds?
thanks!
Many people share this view with you, but I don’t believe you could be more wrong.
This sounds great, but exhibiting good position on the hill runs does not mean that this technique will automatically appear in the sprint. From what Charlie said above I don’t believe he thinks this is the case either.
If this were the case then what is the challenge in improving an athlete’s position out of the blocks? Simply have him run some hills and his technique will be perfect!
This is why technique should be solidified by the time the competitive season starts. Techniques should not be corrected in-season.
I believe this is why most beginners have really good (not perfect) sprinting form. Only when bad coaches start tampering with this with drills and other nonsense at an early stage do they hurt the athlete. A good coach can incoporate drills properly at the right stages and times.
The hills make it easier for an athlete to get into that deep angle postion in the first place while at the same time it consciously lets the athlete get in that deep position without worrying about falling over. You are right in assuming that simply running hills will necessarily trasfer over into the track. You have to be strong enough to get into that deep postion out of the blocks and BJ is a perfect example of this; however, hills are one part to the puzzle, strength another, and finally a good coach being the final piece. For example, even if Joe Blow is strong enough to get into a deep position out of the blocks, Joe Blow won’t get into that position if he is afraid of falling flat onto his face (i.e. if he waits until the last possible moment). Hills are just a piece of the puzzle but IMHO a necessary piece.
Same short distances/speeds mentioned in the GPP DVD. It makes sense to me that the more advanced an athlete gets then the steaper the hill should be. This of course also depends how flexible you are in the triple extension pre-position (i.e. full squat position). So flexibility is also a key issue. You have to flexible enough so that you can run steaper and steaper hills; otherwise, you will be running the hills in a more upright manner (or shortened stride) which defeats the purpose (i.e. running but only going as deep as a quarter squat position as opposed to a deeper squat position).
Strongly disagree with you here. Many beginners have horrendous form.
i can see your point, but where do you stop and how much you leave your athlete -at a high level by then- run hills at steep inclinations and with presumably lower speeds? they will be strong for sure, but i suppose, the speed can’t be the same…
not to mention risk factors (e.g., knees, ankles, etc)
others?
When doing hills you are not only doing them for your speedwork! You are also doing them in the GPP phase so that the athlete can get in shape and stay there with maintenance by doing hills only on Saturdays in the SPP if my memory serves me correctly. You have to check out the GPP DVD to get further clarification.
I will agree with you that when you practice a skill incorrectly it takes so much time to fix that mistake bc the athlete has to unlearn what he has learned incorrectly before he can learn the proper sprinting form correctly. This applies to any motor skill; however, this also proves my point to some degree.
For example, if an athlete is constantly paralyzed with anaylzing himself all the time then he won’t be able to relax and sprint well. I believe for beginners only minor adjustments need to be made; whereas, majoir adjustments in parts can be made for elite athletes.
How much can a 10 yr old comprehend in terms of sprinting form? How do you tell him to not overstride/understride? If you teach him the pulldown drill when doing power speed drills, how do you know that he won’t be pulling himself along the track instead of pushing himself down the track!
I know bc I was taught incorrectly at the college level and it lead to me to have multiple hamstring pulls! I am not an idiot but once I learned how to incorrectly sprint it took a good coach and properly executed drills for me to sprint the way I did when I was a kid; actually, I sprinted better than I ever did but you get the picture! The incorrect pulldown or claw drill fucked me up much worst than had I not learned the drill at all!
Not speed work? What are they then?
They are the introductory element of speed preparation. Check the GPP DVD again and listen to the discussion about the role in acceleration and speed.
Technique adjustments should almost always be small, particularly with high-level athletes. This is not the issue I am debating. You said that beginner’s usually have good sprinting form. This is completely wrong in my opinion. People tend to think that good sprinting technique is a “natural” skill, but the kids I have seen would strongly contradict this. Sure, most kids can sprint. Then again, most kids can throw a baseball. But there is big difference between doing something and doing something right. The issue is that most kids don’t automatically exhibit great or even good form in sprinting that will allow them compete at a high level later on in life. This can be caused by inappropriate training methods as you have stated, but it can also simply occur on its own.
A good coach can explain his methods to a 10 year old. You don’t need to talk about overstriding/understriding in order to correct someone’s form. The whole point of coaching an athlete is to present them with challenges that are understandable and manageable.
I would disagree with the contention that most kids have bad running form. I have found that few who have not been “advised” in some way have bad form and that which presents is usually correctable through strengthening drills. Too much instruction early is a recipe for problems later on.
Sometimes the greatest display of coaching wisdom is knowing when to keep your mouth shut.
I think that kids run much better barefooted than with bad shoes; shoes that are not meant for running at all (like heavy and stiff tennis-type-shoes). Furthermore, when looking at really young kids running, they usually have a good posture (they don’t have the strength to lean forward or backwards).
Bravo, bravo.
if i may again, where would you stop then in terms of the inclination of the hills?
PS my GPP dvd won’t be able to play in a while… 
I think part of the issue here is that we are dealing in subjective terms. What is “bad” form? What is “good” form? These things mean different things to different people.
Early on GPP is obviously the focus, and this can correct some of the problems. However, I believe athletes need to learn correct technique early on as well if it is not automatically present. And in my experience it does not come automatically for most.
Obviously with anything we can reach a point where it is too much of a good thing. I believe instruction of correct technique early on is very important however. The best situation is one in which you are working with an elite athlete who has had correct technique deeply ingrained for many years. There are many benefits when this is the case.
Agreed. I certainly have worked with younger kids who show good technique. In these instances there is no reason to complicate things. But in instances where the kid has poor technique, I see no reason not to work on correcting it.
This has turned into reply after reply of stating the obvious. Charlie’s advice being the obvious, and everyone else chiming in on the obvious situations where there is a need to adjust Charlie’s obvious. It all comes back to a coach using good sense.
I would disagree that I am just stating the obvious. From Charlie’s post it seems he is against technique work for young athletes to a large degree. Furthermore, what makes good sense to one coach doesn’t to another. I feel this discussion is raising valuable points even if you don’t see the value.
I thought they were resistance work to some degree, form work to another degree, and some speed work. My bad I guess all of the lead and other chemicals at TeckCominco is frying my brain on the track (For those of you who don’t know I run track in the City of Trail which has a Mineral/chemical plant right next to the track).
I just don’t see any value in what your posts are saying. Right now you’re saying that what makes good sense to one coach doesn’t to another, and all I’m saying is that it’s back and forth and back and forth but there is no definitive solution as to one coaches approach over anothers (in regards to technique work for kids/young athletes). It makes sense to me to realize that when charlie says that many kids don’t need technique work, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t mean they don’t have to work on their skills as a sprinter. I believe he means that if we can make young athletes drill without them being conscious of it, you can keep it simple to the simple-minded. I’m not saying your posts don’t have value, it just seems that they lack direction. It’s clear that you have your opinion on technique training, and I would prefer that we received more specifics on why. I’m not experienced enough to get into your discussion, I’m merely pointing out that I’d like to see more rationale.
The likelihood of there being a definitive solution is pretty much zero. There are much more simple problems than the one being discussed here, yet people still can’t come to an agreement.
That is not what I am hoping for however. I am only looking to understand what other people think about this issue.
Yes, I understand that, as that is what I came into this discussion to talk about. However, since that point the discussion has shifted to whether or not younger athletes are born with good sprinting form, and subsequently, what should be done if they are not.
I am not sure why you think my posts lack direction as they are consistently on-topic with what is being discussed.
This is not the place for me to outline the details of exactly what I believe and why. If you are looking for a more thorough description I would suggest doing a search for my writings.
There are many fruitless discussions on any message board, but I don’t believe this is one of them. If you aren’t getting any useful information out of this then that is fine. However, I found the topic interesting and thought-provoking. I don’t see a reason for you stifle this discussion just because you think it’s pointless.