Why do we get injuries?

Siff was actually a buddy of mine.

More questions:

Other than the skyscraper example, do you see any other analogy between a beam and a muscle? Would you consider it a model for muscular physiology?

How does metal fatigue? Can you tell a fatigued piece of metal from a “fresh” one?

What does “inssues” mean?

What is moving, the body, the body part or the force? What difference does it make (static vs dynamic) at “particulate level”?

What does “weight” have to do with the breaking point (both in america and outside of it)?

Does the cologen have to do with the final tract of the digestive system?

In your opinion, do antagonist muscle groups express forces acting upon a joint or directly on the agonist muscle?

Would you suggest a construction worker walking on a beam (or a muscle, j/k) to rely on the “good” feedforward only? Same question for a gymnast.

How did you get the figure of 99.99999%?

Do the athletes not display the ability to reduce antagonist activity all the time or just sometime? How do you explain sudden injuries by the fastest athletes (supposedly those more able to do the above)?

If 99.999999% of the athletes are not able to shut down the antagonists in ballistic actions, why, IYO, the 100m at the Olympics is not turned into a survivor kind of game?

How would you address the above mentioned ability?

If there is a limitless ability to increase performance, can I be a 100m Olympic finalist in Beijing?


LOL ok i woll try to answer all your questions

  1. the beam was not analogous to muscles in a physiological sense. i was just trying to assert that materials even strong ones like metal have breaking points wether by instantaneous overload or by a fatiguing force.

  2. im not quite sure what you asking in this question but i will try… metal fatigue can be analagous to physical fatigue. ie muscles as a whole not as components weaken due to certain physiological traits of our human anatomy. so when we are fatigued we are more likly to become injured i know this is obvious and restated but it should be said over and over. but muscles can still be damaged when “fresh” because of overload.

  3. i apologize for my horrible spelling just substitute the word “begins” lol.

  4. first particulate means at its smalles level so if we are talking about the rectus femoris then the particulate of it could be an individual muscle fiber or even an atom or molecule, basically it means at its basic level. its a relative term. second the body creates internal forces and then movment is a by-product. remember to move in 3 dimensions relative to our enviornment we must create force against another object. if we were for example shot out of a cannon are bodies center of gravity would follow a pre determined parabolic shape despite the movement of our limbs. the difference between static and dynamic is basically movement dynamic meaning moving or changing , static is the opposite, unchanging non- moving. athletics at a gross level is mostly dynamics rarily are there periods of extended static actions. if you want to take it one level further during most ballistic action muscle contraction is violent (this is a good thing if you can handel it)

  5. in america weight is measured in lbs. which takes in consideration the negative forec of gravity acting on all masses. in the metric system (outside of america) mass is seprate from weight to attain the force of an object at any time we must multiply by 9.8 m/s/s (gravity). so in america lbs equal to mass times gravity. where as in other countries mass is only considered. ( us crazy yanks).

  6. collagen is what makes up your tendons and ligaments it comprises 75% of your ligaments dry weight.

  7. antagnostic muscles express tension on the joint nontheless they oppose agnostic muscle action.

  8. the feed forward syatem deals with actions tha are ballistic ie you create the tension and hold on for the ride hoping that the projectile trajectory (spelling) is correct so their is no information sent back to the brain to create small adjustments like when your trying to balance on one leg, that would be feedback which is way to slow a system for ballistic athletic and violent movement ie. wut u need in sprinting, jumping, football etc. so a worker on a beam or a gymnast of a balance beam would be using the feedback system but as soon as that gymnast does flip or something explosive in nature it becomes the feed forward system. so both systems are needed its just that athelets should have well developed feed forward systems because the bulk of their performance is based on ballistic actions.

  9. the figure is a theatrical figure ie. i didnt do reasearch to find it i just know that very very very few people display these traits.

  10. they display it very rarily. the goal of an athlete is to reduce antagnostic action as much as possible the more u do this the more potential force that can be produced. most elite sprinters even your maurce greene and asafas dont display this trait and thats why they still tear muscles from time to time. dont get me wrong these guys produce force at amazing velocities but my concern is the continual evolution of athetic ability. there is a better way atleast thats what i believe. when it becomes known, mainstream so to speak i believe their will be a revolution in athletics .

  11. athletes are still able to function with out profecient feedforward ability but they does not mean to say that there is a higher level of performance and injury preventivness.

  12. this is a hugey complex subject but one is to absorb more force an example of this is depth landings or altitude landings (discussed in supertraining but rarly addressed by athletes and their coaches) and one great invention is the inertial trainnier a device which allows u to move the mass of an object absent of gravity. in some excercises athletes are able to perform 6- 10 repetitions per second (now thats fast). but really i cant tell you all the ways to better these traits becasue its really a life style and a system that i am still learning. try this, with your back against the wall lower yourself into a wall squat position, legs at a 90 degree angle, hold yourself there not with your quads but with only your glutes and hamstrings (your quads are turned off) remember your not tryting to pushinto the wall but push the balls of your feet STRAIGHT thought the ground think about the functions of your hamstrings. isolate the agnostic muscles (hamstrings and glutes) and do not activate your antagnostic muscles (vastus externalus rectus femoris etc. ).

  13. i dont know your athetic status or potential ability but maybe u can humans are limited but not by as much as most think the nervous system is highly adaptable so adaptable that it can be changed in a manner of seconds and remember the nervous system controls the body not the other way around. studies have been done on batting achievement where one group actually had batting practice and the others only visualized batting their improvement was measured and found to be the same!!! but big gains in athletisism takes years give yourself 6 years training twice a day 6 days a week eating properly you will be greater than you can proably concieve of. the problem is people want gains right now immediatly and dont want to be a palate on which a masterpiece is created and masterpieces take a long time to forge. to effect in the physical nervous system takes eteremes of training that most would consider suicide but if you train properly and prepair you can take up massive volumes of work ie. high load high velocity over and over again everyday in reality thats what all athletics truely is.

as a final statment let me say look at valery borsov the russion sprinter and olympic champ. when he starte to train he ra 13 sec in the 100m, doest show much potential does it, but through prper training he became thw worlds fastest man. his ability in atributed to plyometrics but this is not completly true atleast not in the way americans concieve plyometrics. get this… at his peak he was doing altitude drops from heights over 20 feet and landing in a perfect PERFECT!!! dead stop squat position. if your not impressed by that your not an athlete. since his time even more has been learned about the nature of training the human body to its true potential.
i hope that helps a little but if you really want a heads up to how to train an athlete start from the start lol. i would reccoment thses books in this order. human anatomy and physiology by marieb, Kinesiology of the Musculoskeletal System by nueman, Biomechanics of sport and excercise by mcginnes, neromechanics of human movement by enoka, supertraining by your buddy siff, and science and practice of strength training by zatsiorsky there are lot of others but those are the main ones in my library at the moment.


Thanks for the reply, quite self explanatory…

Good to know that hamstring and glutes are agnostic, just think a muslim hamstring on a christian body, it would be pulling all the time…

Is the vastus externalus something in between the sternalis and the vastus lateralis?

Re. point 12, don’t you think that being knee and hip flexed and imaging to straighten the legs implies an activation of the knee extensors?
Are glutes/hamstring and quads necessarily always antagonists just because they live at the opposite side of the street (hip/knee joint)?

As the muscles know only forces acted upon them, why do you need a 0 gravity device when you can just move your limbs without a load? What’s the difference?

What exercises can be don at 10 reps/second??

Re. point 13, why do I need to train twice a day, six days a week, when I can just visualize to do so?

Are Borzov’s achievements (going from 13" at young age to 10" as an adult), only due to the exposure to the best possible training IYO?

Let me suggest you something to read too:
Mel C. Siff, Facts and Fallacies of Fitness, pg. 15.


Flights (travel)! I recall Charlie stating that Ben had so many flights in so many hours, all over the world. It’s hard to say no when people are willing to pay you hundreds of thousands of bucks to compete.

Of course.

But even one of the simplest and biggest reasons for injury IMO is mental fatigue - training when personal stresses are highest or after a late night or when tired.

(not even drinking or chasing skirt but maybe driving or studying).

Another is simply overuse injuries.

It is not advised to say all inury is down to one simple reason,

One of the main personal stresses in young and seriuos amateur sports people here in Ireland is travel and particlaurly driving.

  1. glutes and hams are not always agnostic every muscle can be bothat some time.

  2. the vastus externulus is the artistic anatomy term for the quadrecept muscle on the outside of your leg ( i am a artist by way of hobby) i believe it is called something slighly different in medical anatomy.

  3. think about the 2 functions of the hamstrings they not only act as knee flexers they are also hip extensors think of the vector forces involved in the quadrecepts development of force (if you know about vector quantities as they apply to physics) if the leg is at a 90 degree angle the force the quads produce would be away from the body and up (all muscles have to vector forces to make a resultant force which is the sum of the two this is because limbs move around joits in a circular fashion) but what did i tell you the point of theis excercise is force wise… push STRAIGHT DOWN inot the ground the only way to accomplish this is to activate the glutes/hamstrings in the proper way. this took me weeks to get and i mean weaks. of visualizing and DOING. theroy is fine an dandy but you have to do so u can feel wuts happening in your body.

  4. i cant say that they are or are not alaways agnostic to each other. but i can think of an example where they would not be if the glutes (not the hamstrings were active) and the vastus externalus and internulus are active (not the rectus femoris) but i dont know how much this applies to sport. ive tried to accomplish this it was an interesting experience. but it can be done. in that case no muscle groups are opposing each other and this is a general gross example.

  5. ok this is a difficult concept to grasp. weight has mass and force (gravity) if u take gravity out of the equation all you are moving is the inertia of an object, its mass. so muscles create forces absent of gravity and this allows you to extremly fast reps (the 10 reps a sec) it really isnt about training the muscle throuhg strain its about training the nervous system. i believe talks about this in his book but his device is a flywheel type device since then a company has made one that looks liek a pully system that in which rails that are parallel to the floor and are extremely low in friction act as the device removing gravity ie it only moves side to side. this is a difficult one to explain so ill give you a link to their site and u can do some reading http://www.impulsepower.com/default.htm

  6. my point about the visulization is that themind controls the body to an extent that most dont think possible. you still have to do the leg work to become a great athlete but visualization the proper way is a huge component. i have heard of an idividual paralyzed and the doctors saying that he would never walk again. he began to study why he could not walk, not “my spinal cord is damage” but wut exactly is preventing me from being able to walk. then he by will alone rebuilt those damaged neural path ways to create new nerves built around the injury. now you guys would probably know him as jay schroeder trainer of adam archuleta and a fully functional great athlete himself.

  7. ive talked with a man whose mentor was borsov traininer and the russian consultatnt on athletic development. you guys would know him as the inventor of plyometrics. he said that though valery did not show great potential he know that the factors and their basic level which effect speed could be manipulated, they based these traits on thsoe of jesse owens. now this impressive… russia being the research machine it was knew what jesse ate for day to day how many times he made solid waste how many times he had sex everything was recorded and anylized.

  8. thanks for the suggestion i will look into it but honestly i have to say even though siff was an amazing strenght coach i dont think he realized the gold mine he was sitting on he had all the russian data an dknowledge but i dont think he hever put two and two together to realize the potential of his research. Supertraining can be a revolutionary book even more than it is IF you look at it through at it under a different light.

hope that helps peace.

  1. Again, good to have agnostic muscles…

  2. I guess quadricept and internalus are also artistic anatomy terms.

  3. As the hams are knee flexors and hip extensors, how do you keep your knee bent against the gravity on your bodymass?

  4. Triple extension, very sporty.

5a) Moving the inertia?

5b) Can you make an example of any exercise lasting 100ms each rep for a total of ten reps in any joints’ full ROM?

5c) Did you realize this guy is talking about co-contractions all the way?

  1. My cousin told me that once he died… j/k

  2. Verkhoshansky? He can hardly be the mentor of anyone not living in Russia or Italy (where he lives now), except may be Dr. Hatfield who went to him.

8) Facts and Fallacies of Fitness, pg. 15.


  1. um… yes… agonist are good i dont teall understand your question but anyway … next…

  2. being that there is no statement here im geussing this is a statement on my spelling… if you want me to continue to answer your questions lets keep this civil this is not a spelling contest and i dont take the time to edit my work this is a place for ideas not fine literature.

  3. if your back is against the wall and the glutes and hams are active u can get inot a squat position without the help of your quads. i explained how it was explained to me more even so now you need to do some thinking and try it for your self.

  4. im not sure wut this is refrence to in your questions you may want to put a full question i dont want to have to be looking back at old posts to answer new ones.

  5. i gaven you the site now read they can explain it better than i can.

b. if you go to the site and u look at the pictures u can see the machine and why its possible to attain such speeds. if you ask them they will even send you a cd with people performing some of the excercises. again YOU need to do some leg work ive given you the tools.

c. hes not talking about cocontrations if it were a cocontration it would be a slow movement based on the feedback system. wut does happen is that you alternate rapidly between opposing muscle groups. being able to turn muscle groups on and off quickly at will which would be helpful in sports no?

  1. ok thats nice…

  2. lol i never siad this man never went to see him and i didnt mention the name of the man. if you know everything old yuri does please enlighten us lol… this man was taught by and spent time with yuri learning his philosphies and practices. this is something im sure that many people did as he was at the time the greatest strength coach around.

  3. please do enlighten me to this passage as i to not own the book it seems to be a point of argument for you and at the moment means nothing to me.

Just point (7), Borzov’s trainer was not Verkhoshanskij, was not even Tabachnik, it was Valentin Petrovskij.

yes he was not his trainer but he was the man who sythesized the methods used to create his massive and consistant improvments.

So you can’t be bothered to have a little consideration for others who have to struggle through the run-on mass of almost-words to understand what you’re trying to say. :mad:

if u dont understand wut im saying thats one thing, i have no problem explaing something that i might have accidently spelled or typed wrong, but dont sit there and critique my spelling its a waste of time the ideas are wut is important.

I’m not a spelling or grammer teacher, but when you put together run-on sentences that are basically incomprehensible it discourages people from trying to engage in discussion with you. A little effort making things clearer would go a long way.

LOL, your killin me man, i apologize if you cant tell wut im trying to say, but can you let me know what you want clarified so we can get off the subject of correct spelling and grammer and back to the topic at hand…

Yes… lack of ability to absorb force – a palpable assessment. But there can be numerous reasons behind that ‘lack of ability to absorb force’; external and internal. There is a limit to how much one can increase the level of force abortion, the rest is up to prevention, estimating effort, technique and recovery as well as nutrition etc., and sometimes, pure luck. It’s difficult to take everything into account – high level athletics is always accompanied with risks and calculating (as well as dealing with) them.

but the ability to absorb force can be changed greatly to the advantage of the athlete. i will not deny that poor nutrition or a freak accident can contribute to injury but in terms of things that we as athletes or coaches can affect via training absent of other factors i believe teaching the body to properly absorb large amounts of force is the greatest thing one can do to prevent injury and increase athleticism. i am thinking of the problem at its most base nature and i think people often overlook this and focus on superficial causes.

so im geussing you dont have any question you just wanted to be caustic ???

i believe teaching the body to properly absorb large amounts of force is the greatest thing one can do to prevent injury and increase athleticism.

How does one go about doing this? I wouldnt mind learning a thing or two more about injury prevention.

You’re the one who keeps going on about it. Gee whiz, I dropped it awhile ago . . . :rolleyes: