no23,
Here’s the thread in which the flash heating was first mentioned:
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=4791&highlight=ensure
The 6+8 study didn’t, as I recall, maximally stimulate anything. That is, it had an effect but greater results occur with more (up to a point). IN private conversation with Tipton (one of the researchers on this work), he stated that you get increasing effects up to about 40 g protein. 6 grams of EAS doesn’t maximally stimulate protein synthesis, nor does 8 grams of carbs maximally stimulate insulin or glycogen storage.
Previous work on glycogen restoration has suggested intakes of 1.5 g/kg immediately after and again 2 hours later. Protein at 1/3rd of that is a common suggestion. That’s where those numbers are coming from. Look up anything by John Ivy or Ed Coyle.
Note (this in reference to comments later in the thread) that these types of studies are looking at glycogen depletin exercise, exhaustive endurance stuff, high rep/high volume bodybuilding stuff. Their relevance to the types of low volume, CNS dominant work in many sprinting/maximal weight training methods is questionable.
That is ,a bodybuilding doing 20+ sets of high rep work is depelting lot of glycogen, stimulating protein synthesis; an endurance athlte doing 40 minutes at LT or 2+ hours aerobically is as well. A sprinter running short repeats on a full recovery is not.
Nutritional recommendations have to be based on the metabolic requirements of the athlete and the training being done.
I don’t think a high GI/protein drink is necessary or beneficial following pure CNS work. Restoration of fluids and maybe creatine or something.
Following extensive work in the glycolytic range, absolutely.
For bodybuilders wanting hypertrophy, absolutely.
For endurance athletes, absolutely.
It’s all about specificity.
- Why are we using high-GI carbs and aminos/whey hydrolysate? Berardi and others will argue that the rate of digestion, and thus the rates of protein and glycogen synthesis, is greater, which is a good thing. They’ll also say that these will lead to a large insulin response, which is anabolic. I would argue that there are two reasons why Berardi’s plan calls for these ingredients: 1. Lab-based studies often use PRO and CHO in their purest forms to reduce third-variable effects, so perhaps Berardi recommends the pure compounds simply because the effectiveness of real food has not been tested against the high-GI/hydrolysate combo; 2. Berardi’s overall eating plans often call for very few carbs to be ingested during the day prior to training. For athletes with high workloads this may mean that their glycogen levels will be low prior to training and will require rapid replenishment. If adequate CHO is taken in during the day, perhaps this becomes unnecessary?
Hyperinsulinemia + hyperaminoacidemia have syneergistic effects in terms of storing glycogen, inhibiting catabolism and promoting protein synthesis. Do a medline search on Biolo to get started. Hence the emphassis on high GI, insulin spiking compounds.
Again, this is more important for an athlete involved in training that depletes glycogen and strongly promotes protein synthesis, far less so for a CNS dominant athlete. As Charlie pointed out, save the high GI + protei nstuff for the extensive sprinting workouts, special endurance and that stuff.
- This point is reported third-hand from one of the ruggedmag forums, so take it for what it’s worth. Apparently one of the researchers who worked on the studies upon which Berardi’s PWO reccomendations are based, has said that he feels that any differences in performance between athletes taking in a Berardi-style drink and those taking in real food would take years to show up, if at all.
Probably Tipton who I have spoken to but I think you may be confusing issues here (I’d ahve to read the ruggedmag forum). Even so, tiny percentage increases for athletse can mean the difference between winning and losing. that is, even if you onlyi get a .5% increase in recovery or volume capacity from such nutritional practices, that might amount to the differences between first and last in the real world of performance.
As long as such a strategy isn’t outright hurting (i.e. putting fat on the athlete from excessive calories), what do you really have to lose? Even if the effect is tiny, tiny effects add up over the training times of elite athletes. Adding, as tipton points out in his recent review on protein intakes, the questino to ask is whether or not a particular nutritional intervention is going to hurt the athlete. If not, it can’t hurt to use it even if the effect is miniscule (or unmeasurable in the lab).
I have read every post workout nutrition thread I could find on this board and have a few enduring questions.
-
Coach Francis recommends a high GI/protein drink after only the most physically demanding sessions, what exactly then is consumed after CNS days - the LIV, no carbs?, a normal meal? Sorry if this has already been covered.
-
What is done for sessions that fall somewhere between high CNS stress and high physical stress like a 60min. lifting session, compromise and consume 20g protein/40g high GI carbs just once? I have a hard time accepting Berardi’s insulin jacking strategy after every workout, but also feel that consuming some type of drink is important. Is there a middle ground?
This would relate to physical stress as CNS stress would more likely be relieved by multi vits, minerals etc.
What about turning the CNS off with relaxing agents charlie?
ZMA
Valarian Root
Green Tea…
“Turning off the CNS with relaxing agents?” I hear that Texas is the world leader at that. They use Pavulon.
You mentioned ZMA before about helping relaxing the muscles at night for better healing…perhaps you could dig deeper charlie? You must be reminded that things that seem simple and obvious are very sophisticated concepts to morons like me.
There are lots of studies about Zinc and Mag but I know from experience that ZMA helps.
You’re the guy for studies, I’m just Chauncey Gardiner from “Being There”.
Hahaha, that’s such a great movie.
“Training elements are like a garden, if one part of the garden grows, growth is encouraged in all other parts of the garden.”
“A garden cannot grow without a new stimulus, but it is always better to understimulate than overstimulate because if you overstimulate the garden may not be able to keep up with the stimuli, but if you understimulate improvements are still being made.” 
Always good to hear from a Peter Sellers fan!
I enjoyed Seller’s performance in The Party, old but funny movie.
If you like Sellers, get “The Bobo”! When you see his then new wife, Brit Eklund in it, you’ll understand why Peter had his first massive heart attack at a relatively young age.
… wasn’t he with Sofia Loren also?
Hadn’t heard that.
While we’re off topic, I would also recommend After the Fox for Peter Sellers fans. It costars Brit Ekland and Victor Mature. It’s a little known gem.
Not sure if you’ve seen it Charlie - but one of our channels here showed the original ‘LadyKillers’ from 1955 with Sellers and Alec Guinness … a true classic.
A B&W
I just turned it on and recognised Guinness and started to watch it … well worth renting out.
I totally agree Lyle. Specificity of regeneration techniques can make all the difference here. Protein is the most critical component here post training though, even if you leave out the carbohydrates or have a reduced amount.
How about using a pure essential amino acid matrix immediatelty post workout?
Expensive and will be digested too quickly thus resulting in a catabolic state shortly after ingestion.